• Sponsor

    Bunker (Facility)

    Cost - 15 IPCs
    Move - 0 (Zero)
    Only 1 per territory allowed
    Same bombing rules as bases
    Boosts the defence capabilities of up to 3 Infantry units to 4 or less
    Negates all combined arms abilities from attackers

  • '17 '16

    It seems a very high cost (even if it is a balanced cost for the abilities provided).
    A 10 IPCs unit would be more affordable.

  • '19 '18 '17 '16

    The last couple games I’ve played we have used this type of facility/bunker only with three levels.  Only 1 level may be built per turn & only 1 per territory.  Each round of combat reduces the facility/bunker by one level.  Use a chip under bunker for levels.

    Level 1 = 4 IPCs
    Level 2 = 5 IPCs
    Level 3 (max) = 5 IPCs

    Level 1 defends with 1 die @ 2 to hit, 1 AAA gun roll (up to 3 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 1 die @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  No bonus to Infantry or Artillery.

    Level 2 defends with 2 dice @ 2 to hit, 2 AAA gun roll (up to 6 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 2 dice @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  Bonus to 4 units of Infantry or Artillery of +1 to defense.

    Level 3 defends with 3 dice @ 2 to hit, 3 AAA gun roll (up to 9 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 3 dice @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  Bonus to 7 units of Infantry or Artillery of +1 to defense.

    Too much?

  • '19 '18 '17 '16

    Like this idea from YG, “Negates all combined arms abilities from attackers”.

    May have to consider adding that.

  • Sponsor

    @Hambone:

    The last couple games I’ve played we have used this type of facility/bunker only with three levels.  Only 1 level may be built per turn & only 1 per territory.  Each round of combat reduces the facility/bunker by one level.  Use a chip under bunker for levels.

    Level 1 = 4 IPCs
    Level 2 = 5 IPCs
    Level 3 (max) = 5 IPCs

    Level 1 defends with 1 die @ 2 to hit, 1 AAA gun roll (up to 3 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 1 die @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  No bonus to Infantry or Artillery.

    Level 2 defends with 2 dice @ 2 to hit, 2 AAA gun roll (up to 6 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 2 dice @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  Bonus to 4 units of Infantry or Artillery of +1 to defense.

    Level 3 defends with 3 dice @ 2 to hit, 3 AAA gun roll (up to 9 dice if planes attack) @ 1 to hit & 3 dice @ 1 to hit naval units if amphibious assault takes place.  Bonus to 7 units of Infantry or Artillery of +1 to defense.

    Too much?

    This is interesting, I wonder if facility upgrades would work some how for the bases as well.


  • I am using a change where bunker extends the life of infantry and artillery units - takes 2 hits to kill.  But after 1 hit, they defend with a 1.

  • '17 '16

    @Young:

    Bunker (Facility)

    Cost - 15 IPCs
    Move - 0 (Zero)
    Only 1 per territory allowed
    Same bombing rules as bases
    Boosts the defence capabilities of up to 3 Infantry units to 4 or less
    Negates all combined arms abilities from attackers

    With 15 IPCs, you get 10 defense points and 5 hits with infantry.
    This facility offers 6 defense points and no additionnal hit with no mobility.
    Seems too costly or too weak.
    Not competitive.

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @Young:

    Bunker (Facility)

    Cost - 15 IPCs
    Move - 0 (Zero)
    Only 1 per territory allowed
    Same bombing rules as bases
    Boosts the defence capabilities of up to 3 Infantry units to 4 or less
    Negates all combined arms abilities from attackers

    I like the move “0” and 1 per territory, but don’t care for the rest.

    The cost is too high - you are talking about spending 15 IPCs to effectively gain six pips defensively. (3 infantry @4) For 15 IPCs you could buy 5 infantry all defending at 2 (10 pips) and also be able to move them around.

    “same bombing rules as bases” - IMO they should be immune from this type of bombing as they would likely have thick reinforced concrete construction with only small slits to shoot through. Bases have lots of things out in the open that can be damaged.

    “negates all combined arms” - I don’t see why a bunker would stop the advantages of a balanced attack force.

    I would make them cheaper or boost more infantry stats, and also make them useless unless infantry are defending in the zone with them.

  • '17 '16

    Here where I stand about bunkers, pillboxes and other kind of defensive fortifications, use AAA unit in a small different way:

    @Baron:

    @simon33:

    I don’t understand the rationale of this 2 hit idea?

    @Baron:

    @Baron:

    Do not forget that AAA have no offensive capacity.
    Infantry have a way to reach up to Att @2.
    AAA have only defensive and fodder purpose and it is a high cost fodder at 5 IPCs.

    @Baron:

    @Arthur:

    The circumstance comes up almost every single game:  a final raid on Moscow.  Usually you know that the Germans have one or two rounds to do the attack and then have to return their planes to western Europe to defend against Allied invaders. Russia must choose how to spend their final 10-15 PUs.  The choice might only change the outcome by a couple percentage points, but why not take the best odds.

    IMO, a unit which is only good to purchase in this particular condition should be improve to be balanced vs other units specially Infantry, since it is THE fodder unit par excellence, and AAA are meant to be use as fodder too after the initial combat round, since they have no attack value.
    Also, can we really compare 2 AAAs (10 IPCs) with 1 Fighter and the tactical possibility it can generate?

    I know it is not suppose to become a new idea thread (but I can refrain myself  :-D), what do you think about this?
    If we acknowledge that AAA is to figure defensive kind of weapons which need a lot of hard work to move from one place to another, hence it only moves during Non-Combat Move phase.
    What if AAA becomes also a way to simulate defensive features and fortification?

    Anti-Aircraft Artillery
    Attack: 0
    Defense: 0 or 1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, which ever the lower.
    Move: 1, NCM only
    Hit point value: 2, no repair needed if it survives combat
    Cost 5
    This means that AAA can take a free hit the same way Battleship does (or 1914 Tank does).

    Do you believe people will want to buy a few more of them, more often?
    Can it become a way to simulate an Atlantic Wall for Germany?
    Can it become a more interesting fodder?

    Such 2 hits unit is able to depict Atlantic  Wall, Maginot Line, Siegfried Line or Gustav Line.

    Infantry is not a purely defensive unit but AAA is.
    Remember,  with AAA only ground units it is auto-destroy.
    My point is to try 2 hits AAA at 5 IPCs.
    No big change.
    Infantry remains best in that case.

    Maybe auto-repair increase the unit value enough.
    That way, it still can be an incentive to defend Normandy instead of fleeing to Paris waiting to counter attack.

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    @Young:

    Bunker (Facility)

    Cost - 15 IPCs
    Move - 0 (Zero)
    Only 1 per territory allowed
    Same bombing rules as bases
    Boosts the defence capabilities of up to 3 Infantry units to 4 or less
    Negates all combined arms abilities from attackers

    With 15 IPCs, you get 10 defense points and 5 hits with infantry.
    This facility offers 6 defense points and no additionnal hit with no mobility.
    Seems too costly or too weak.
    Not competitive.

    What about an operational defensive lines facility which gives +1 defense to all Infantry units only (no MI nor Artillery) stationed in this TT?
    15 IPCs
    Cannot move
    Can be damaged same way as AB or NB.

    I believe that way, any Atlantic Wall built would be defended instead of fleeing France or Bordeaux-Normandy TT to have a better counter-offensive next turn.
    And a Tactical bombing raid would be a must to get ride of a large stack.

    My line of reasoning to give an unlimited +1 def is that to gain the same defensive boost than 5 Infantry units (15 IPCs), even 10 Infantry and 1 such Defensive Line Facility cannot really beat 15 Infantry.
    12% vs 87% odds of survival.
    In fact, you need 22 Infantry units and 1 Defensive Facility
    to break-even with 27 Infantry: 50%-50% odds of survival.
    It is a pretty high number of units, that is why such bonus is not OP.

    And even makes me believe this bonus to defense should also includes Artillery


  • Thinking bunker should be in line with other facilities to a point, and I like to keep things pretty basic so not a fan of leveling up (unless it was done as an optional rule and other facilities get similar upgrades).

    1. Cost, needs to be affordable
    2. Protect inf/art (take hits)
    3. Give the inf/art def bonus (limited to 3 units total)
    4. Limited to 1 per territory, can’t move.
    5. Possibly have its own def roll against naval units during an amphib same time as bombardment?
    6. Subject to SBR

    So:

    1. Cost 8 ipc (might be too low, could more)

    2. Takes a total of 3 hits for ground units (inf/art only). 3 hits could be accumulated over multiple rounds of the same combat. Soaking hits doesn’t damage the bunker, so it auto fixes once the battle is over, and regains its 3 hits after each turn.

    3. Inf/art get +1 def limited to 3 units total (like scramble) when bunker is operational for as long as the battle takes (multiple rounds), or until the def has no inf/art left.

    4. Limited to 1 per territory, and can’t move. Bunker stays when territory is taken over, and can be rebuilt (damage payed 1 IPC each if any). I know that people might say if territory is taken then bunker should be removed, but I’m treating it like other bases so it stays, and can be rebuilt if damaged.

    5. Give an operational coastal bunker a one time def roll of 2 at enemy naval units when defending against amphib. This is done same time as bombardment, would be cool to give it targeting? Would probably need to adjust cost up.

    6. SBR like other bases, takes up to 6 damage. 3 damage puts it at 0, is non operational and would lose all bonuses (can be bombed to -3 like other bases).

    Considering
    Make SBR damage effective after first round of combat (see below).

    This goes against the normal rules for SBR somewhat, but I think that SBR should have some effect on a bunker if attacked on the same turn.

    Example: If you SBR an air base and cause 3+ damage, and attack the territory at the same time, the enemy can still scramble his planes meaning that the SBR didn’t really effect that turn. I think that SBR should have more of an effect on a bunker though.

    Being that all combat is considered to be done at the same time, if you SBR and attack the territory containing the bunker on the same turn, the SBR hits should have an effect on the bunkers capabilities, but not in the first round of combat. So a successful SBR (3 hits of damage or more) doesn’t negate the bunkers capabilities on the first round of combat, but would starting with the second round of combat.

    Just my 2 cents, thanks for everything you do for this game YG


  • Another take on this rule.  Same as previous post, it provides protection to 3 units, but only gives them the ability to take extra hits, not add to their fire power, and as it takes hits the units inside are reduced in strength.  The hits on the fort must be repaired by spending IPCs (like bases).  Forts, like a base, can be made useless if it has too many hits.

    Fortifications are permanent installations that can be purchased for placement up to 1 per territory.  These fortifications can take hits and provide protection for units inside.  They are never destroyed, they can be captured, and their ability to support units is reduced by 1 for every damage point.  Procedure: Cost 10 IPC.  Allows up to 3 infantry and/or artillery units to take an extra hit. The fortification can take up to 6 hits.  Every hit allocated against the fort is a damage point on the fort and a hit on 1 unit.  Units with 1 hit in the fort cannot move and defend with a 1.  When a unit gets its second hit, it is eliminated. 1 damage point and 1 hit can be repaired by spending 1 IPC.  Unoccupied forts cannot take hits except in a strategic raids, and during such a raid, only the fort takes hits - no units are involved.

  • '17 '16

    @Carolina:

    Another take on this rule.  Same as previous post, it provides protection to 3 units, but only gives them the ability to take extra hits, not add to their fire power, and as it takes hits the units inside are reduced in strength.  The hits on the fort must be repaired by spending IPCs (like bases).  Forts, like a base, can be made useless if it has too many hits.

    Fortifications are permanent installations that can be purchased for placement up to 1 per territory.  These fortifications can take hits and provide protection for units inside.  They are never destroyed, they can be captured, and their ability to support units is reduced by 1 for every damage point.  Procedure: Cost 10 IPC.  Allows up to 3 infantry and/or artillery units to take an extra hit. The fortification can take up to 6 hits.  Every hit allocated against the fort is a damage point on the fort and a hit on 1 unit.  Units with 1 hit in the fort cannot move and defend with a 1.  When a unit gets its second hit, it is eliminated. 1 damage point and 1 hit can be repaired by spending 1 IPC.  Unoccupied forts cannot take hits except in a strategic raids, and during such a raid, only the fort takes hits - no units are involved.

    10 IPCs
    3 hits bonus max (1 per unit inside)
    It should also provides +2 Defense to up to 3 Infantry or Artillery units.
    If damaged by at least 3 points, no defense bonus but can still absorbed 3 hits.

    No need to have special infantry unit halved damaged defending at 1.
    The zero defense bonus if facility is not operational makes for it instead.

    In summary:

    Bunker (Facility)

    Cost - 10 IPCs
    Move - 0 (Zero)
    Only 1 per territory allowed
    Provides 3 additional hits, auto-repaired on defender purchase and repair phase

    Same bombing rules as bases for defence bonus to apply:
    Boosts the defence capabilities of up to 3 Infantry or Artillery units to 4 or less

  • '19 '18 '17 '16

    A lot of good ideas for bunkers and I get the idea to treat it like a facility with regards to a SBR to keep them similar.  I wonder if the SBR needs to be reduced on the damage or negated on a bunker?

    Iwo Jima was bombed day after day after day and sure the airfields where a mess and the vegetation was destroyed, but when the Marines landed the fortifications where mostly intact.  At the time, hitting a bunker with aircraft munitions was nearly impossible.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    As I recall, the fortifications at Iwo Jima were mostly cliffside caves and underground excavations.  Their presence wasn’t obvious, so they probably weren’t targetted specifically during the pre-invasion bombardment.  By contrast, the above-ground concrete bunkers along the Normany invasion beaches were obvious military facilities, and were targetted by Allied bombers and ships prior to the landing of the troops.  (Those at Omaha Beach, however, were mostly missed by the heavy bombers due to cloud cover.)

  • '19 '18 '17 '16

    Here is an example of the failure of bombing a small coastal emplacement at Normandy:

    "SAINT-MARCOUF : THE CRISBECQ BATTERY
    GERMAN COASTAL DEFENSE

    The only heavy battery on the eastern coast of the Cotentin Peninsula, the Crisbecq Battery, was located 2.5 kilometers from the shore on a crest overlooking all of Utah Beach. From Crisbecq, the Germans could see and defend the entire coastline from Saint-Vaast-la-Hougue to Grandcamp.

    Although it was never completed, the Crisbecq battery was the keystone of this portion of the German Atlantic Wall with three, long-range 210 mm cannons and a garrison of 400 men. The Allies dropped over 800 bombs on Crisbecq between April 19 and June 6, 1944. This unrelenting aerial attack climaxed on the night of June 5 when 101 four-engine bombers unleashed 598 tons of explosives on the battery. On June 6, the surroundings were unrecognizable, but the guns were still intact.

    At 6 am on D-Day, as GI’s were landing on Utah Beach, Crisbecq opened fire, sinking an American destroyer.

    The battery held out for several days, despite shelling by U.S. battleships and attacks from the American Infantry in hand-to-hand trench combat.

    To repel the Allied assault, the German commander of Crisbecq radioed to the Azeville battery and requested that it fire on his position. Crisbecq was finally taken at 8:20 am on June 12, after the German commandment ordered its troops to evacuate to La Pernelle, between Quettehou and Barfleur. The fierce German resistance momentarily halted the Allied Advance to the north. "

    Just pulled that off of a google search on D-Day.  I’m not trying to be a chump with this post, just noting that “bunkers” were built to be hidden (maybe not all of them) and to withstand such an attack even if discovered before ground operations.  I mean if 101 heavy bombers in one mission the night before D-Day have little impact why should a SBR inflict damage on a bunker?

Suggested Topics

  • 4
  • 6
  • 3
  • 7
  • 8
  • 23
  • 52
  • 9
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

33
Online

16.3k
Users

38.0k
Topics

1.6m
Posts