Liberating France or not?

  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    So after x number of rounds a common situation is US/UK liberates Normandy/Bordeaux and maybe southern France. They might be able to keep the territories because Germany and Italy are busy elsewhere and France looks more or less unprotected. Now what? Should the allies just walk into France? Probably not as the problem is of course it is in Germany’s interest to re-take France every round and get the up to 19 IPC from France. France is then re-taken by Germany, but now the allies face a huge problem, because Normandy/Bordeaux and southern France are now French!
    Basically, how strong should one be in order to liberate France? It is very tempting to liberate France but in most games I think it is a huge mistake at least in the early rounds. How do people go about this?

  • '14 Customizer

    You want to make sure if you lose France as the Axis to make sure you lose it to UK not USA.  If USA liberates France then UK can land fighters making it difficult for the Axis to liberate.  Other than that I agree with you 100%.  Liberating France resets the ownership of Normandy and Southern France which can stall an allied invasion.

  • You have to Judge each situation differently, I think.

    It is true it only serves the axis if France changes hands every turn, giving Germany +19 every turn (or whatever production france has left). So that is an unwanted situation.

    As allies, I Liberate France only if I can hold it ofc, but not always right away. If Japan does not pressure the USA too much (must prevent that 6VC win in the Pacific) I sometimes like to produce a while in Normandy and possibly SF as well with the USA before I move into Paris.
    Another consideration for me is the economic situation. Liberating France can shift the economic balance as much as 31 IPCs in favor of the allies (Axis -9, Allies +22) and this may or may not be needed.
    Last but not least, if Japanese pressure on the USA is extremely high, to the point where the USA cannot afford to spend a single penny in Europe anymore, France must be liberated to take over the role of producing units in Europe from the USA.

  • This brings up an on going debate, and many believe the capital rules should be revisited. A good place to start would be with a powers bank can only be taken once per game (when it’s capital is taken). After that you forfeit any IPCs held to the bank. The French are a very good example for this.

    Here’s something I have thought about (while YG has been developing Halifax) but haven’t shared. Most capitals start with a major IC (only Rome starts w/minor). What if when you capture an enemy capital you are awarded 2x the IC’s production level in IPCs. If they have less then you take it all, if they have more they keep it (hidden, or relocated to use if they ever get their capital back). Could forfeit any excess to the bank?

    In a normal G40 game say G1 you take Paris (capital of France). Its production as a major IC is 10, double that and you would get a max up to 20 IPCs (wouldn’t take damage into account). They start with 19, so that’s what you get (they keep nothing). The second time you take Paris it would have a minor IC on it, so production is 3 units X2= 6 IPCs given to Germany, any thing left over is kept safe for them to use later (or could forfeit to bank). Sack London and the max awarded is 20 IPC to Germany, say the rest was sent to Canada for safe keeping.

    This is just me thinking out loud……might work for the new Halifax variant (still under development by Young Grasshopper) or if you wanted to house rule in regional capitals for Calcutta, and joint regional capitals for Sidney, and Ottawa. They all have the new mid level production center that produces 5 units. Double that and if captured the the capturing power would get up to 10 IPCs directly from that powers bank (plus an NO). Some other details would have to be worked out.

  • Rereading the OP’s questions:

    For the USA I’d aim for ~6TRS in Europe initially (12 land units) on a J1DOW. Those TRS also needs protection, so the USA would spend ~105IPCs in Europe with this (before US4), about as good as it can get without loosing Hawaii. That’s the bad thing (for the allies) of a J1DOW. The good thing is that the USA will be at Gibraltar/Spain US2/3 instead of US4.
    Japan’s actions must be judged very carefully and if the USA is in the position to successfully fight Japan (tie down the IJN into fighting for Philippines/DEI), USA can resume investments into Europe to a maximum of ~160 IPCs before US9.

    A J2DOW justifies ~160IPC investment for the USA in Europe (24 land units for Gibraltar US4) and a J3/4DOW allows ~190IPC investment (max 28 land units US4=> Gibraltar).

    You can always opt for fewer land units and add in some STR (roughly 2 land units per STR), an invaluable unit for destroying German/Italian IC’s and at the same time adding long range punch for your attacks.

    Anyway, those numbers are neither optimal nor advised, but rather maximum number the USA can get into Europe without losing to a Japanese 6VC victory too easily…

  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    my initial thought were it is completely unreasonable for Germany to gain up to 19 IPCs every time they take paris. What if the allies need to actually keep Paris for an enrire round before it turns into “France”, then it makes some sense for Germany to take the 19 IPCs. Makes no sense to me if the teritory is battled by both sides every round!

  • Customizer

    I would usually not liberate Paris until Northern Italy and Western Germany were both in Allied hands. OR, Italy was taken out and Germany is in such a poor position that they couldn’t afford to mount an attack against Paris. In that case, the US/UK would have to have a lot of units in Paris along with the free 12 IPCs of French units. So much so that Germany just can’t muster enough attacking units to make it worth their while.
    I remember one game where we had a situation like this and our German player got all crazy like “Oh, I got to get Paris back!”. Germany did get Paris back and gained something like 15 IPCs (some French territories were still in Axis hands), but they lost so many units in the process it ended up being a negative for them. Plus, their defenses were severely weakened both in W Germany and Germany itself. Russia had a fun time on the Eastern Front.
    So, basically I wouldn’t liberate Paris unless the Allies had an overwhelming force to either keep it or make it stupid for Germany to retake it.
    Another reason is the Normandy and S France factories. I like for the US in particular, but also the UK to have factories on mainland Europe. I don’t want to give them up until I have and can keep the factories in Italy and possibly W Germany. Then you can give up the French factories.

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