Italy in France??



  • Subs can’t hit or attack planes so yes I only need 1 hit in a destroyer to sink that since the transport can’t counter it’s gone. Plus your gonna Either scramble for that one transport to save it or for your capital ships. Also if the sub hits ither cruser can’t counter.
    And again its all on the dice if I’m rolling what 1 2 3 at 3 and 3 at 4 if I manage 4 hits that sinks all the ships unless he feels it’s prudent to pick apart his Airforce

    Normaly that’s my attack and most times no one scrambles cause they like to actualy have England play and do something othe wise both navy and Airforce is decamated but that’s how I normaly clear it out I meen there’s some small
    Things I can move around not much but basicaly
    It


  • 2017

    Just to be sure we’re on the same page, the scenario I am describing is as follows:

    SZ109 round 1
    Germany: 2 subs: 1 hit
    UK: 1 transport, 1 destroyer, 4 fighters: 2 or more hits

    There would be no round 2 as both German submarines would be sunk. The single German hit must be allocated to the destroyer. Without a second hit and with no round 2, the transport is safe. If you don’t believe me, then I urge you to consult Krieghund in the FAQ (he helped develop the game and is absolutely authoritative).



  • 100% I agree with you about that no question but then for the other battle with the 2 Crusers and 1 battleships wouldn’t matter then cause the planes wouldn’t help tha cause but correct if you chose to scramble with 2 for the 2 subs and I knocked out just the Destroyer the transport would be alive and the planes would retreat 1 transport would hardly cause me to worry about anything this early on plus

    I would probably have the other 1 or 2 subs from the previous attack later track it down but yeah were on the same page


  • 2017

    Okay, I see your logic now.

    I have to say that if were playing the Allies, I would scramble 1 fighter from Scotland to SZ109 (might get lucky, no reason not to) and scramble 3 fighters from London to SZ110. I believe this will tend to hurt Germany more than it hurts the UK since German will likely lose all 6 planes and become far less of a threat.

    Of course this would mean that the Allies won’t have the resources to bother trying to stop Italy from finishing off Paris, but I think it’s still worth it.



  • I agree with you but only again it’s easy to say it now cause you know what I’m going for (your navy) it depends on the rolls again we have all had those games where no matter how impressive your attack is you still loose or win just barely my goal would be just to take the ships in 1 turn allow you to counter and then pull
    My planes back you keep your Airforce and I loose 1 sub and maybe 1-2 planes this way I still clear out your navy since you didn’t scramble for the subs and the battle off Scottland I’d still pull a head since the battle ship can take two hits and pull back. But yeahat the end of the round my objective would be complete.


  • 2017

    Retreat after sinking most/all SZ110 ships would mitigate the damage to Germany and with average dice, should work well. The difference of opinion here is more about how much risk to assume (which is more an issue of personal preference).

    I am glad I understand your G1 naval combat movement now. Hopefully, the explanation will help other people see where you’re coming from.

    I play a great deal of G40 (100+ games on the forums here), and I have to say, most of my opponents reinforce Egypt and do not conduct an attack on Tobruk. Usually in site’s league, the Allies end up with a bid which includes a Mediterranean sub and they tend to attack both SZ96 and SZ97 on UK1.



  • Ah no worries brother again I love to think and play outside the box big time and with Italy ofcorse it all boils down what England dose and dosnt do if that’s there moved I just advance further to alixandria if I have my 2 transports left reinforce Alexandria with 3 more men and 1 tank and wait to push turn 2 to take Egypt from 2 or 3 sides if I have my Capital ships still alive ( again depending if England sent planes to France or not depends on if my ships will live) but if they do I’ll surely have them for round 2 I’ll be able to use my Bomber battleship/cruser for
    Bombardments any men from Anglo/Sudan and my force in alixandria to push into Egypt at that point.

    All this can be moot or negated to what England dose or dosnt but if your playing the ((typical)) opponent then this is how and what I do

    Also I for got to mention I do move some German planes at the end of G1 to Italy depending on if I decide to take southern France or not depends if I teen force southern Italy with 1 fighter and 1 tactical but that’s again depending whom I play and what I’m aiming for



  • @Whitshadw:

    @Uncrustable:

    You also realize that in order for Italy to actually get 19 IPCs round 2 all if the axis must hold off from taking any France tts until France falls!
    This includes Normandy and south France (5IPCs)
    Meaning now 5 less IPCS less Germany on top of the 23 for not taking France G1

    IMO this strategy is so flawed it’s silly, and I’m beginning to wonder if we’re not just arguing with a couple noobs. (No offense but this has to he pointed out)

    I’m sorry this guy is lost or dosnt understand how this game works basicaly my last post in this matter.
    I’ve stated again I’ve played in tournaments and countless levels of expertise from novice to finalist and there’s no one clear way to win you use any advantage to win and sometimes play and use tactics that are unconvential

    Yes Italy may loose up to 20ipcs worth of men to gain 19 from sacking France and 4 for the value of the teratory. But Endland would loose up to 50+ by stacking most of there fighters last I checked 20<50 for value correct?

    England is the ultimate bitch nation in this game. I don’t care if they lose their capital, as long as they can stall Germany/Italy for any number of turns, then they’ve already done their job.

    Also while yes America just sits at Gebralter that dosnt stop transports ferrying troops over and having part of the German Airforce covering France/Italy to counter any attack

    How would an air force counter attack a navy West of Gibraltar? Its to far away. And if your Air force is in France, then Russia must be VERY happy right now.

    All of France can fall in one Turn

    'IT. CANT. FALL. TURN 1. unless Germany takes it. Or you get lucky, but luck is no substitute for a good strategy.

    so I have no idea what this kid is talking about. And this is all round 1 threw 2 movements round 5 is to late to just have America

    America can be West of Gibraltar turn 3. And who cares when they arrive? Italy will see it coming and realize ‘oh shit, i need to turtle’. And turtleling will NOT get Italy into Africa.

    sit at Gebralter and think it’s doing anything.

    It does.

    The idea behind this is too flood Africa

    Cant. America. Unless you want to lose Italy.

    and push into Iraq ASAP.

    Blows my mind how people are so short sited

    Oh wow.

    with just seeing things one way and just reply with America rushs

    They do, its to good of an opportunity to pass up.

    in lol
    Anyways I’m done try it
    … It’ll work and mouths will drop other wise no point arguing with inexperianced players

    Uncrustable’s right. No point, arguing with people who clearly don’t know what their talking about.

    Once again, If Italy is going to get France, then you must choose one of the following as the Axis:

    -Lose Africa
    -Lose Italy
    -Go on the defensive in Europe (allies win)
    -Let Russia live



  • @1Bean432:

    @Whitshadw:

    @Uncrustable:

    You also realize that in order for Italy to actually get 19 IPCs round 2 all if the axis must hold off from taking any France tts until France falls!
    This includes Normandy and south France (5IPCs)
    Meaning now 5 less IPCS less Germany on top of the 23 for not taking France G1

    IMO this strategy is so flawed it’s silly, and I’m beginning to wonder if we’re not just arguing with a couple noobs. (No offense but this has to he pointed out)

    I’m sorry this guy is lost or dosnt understand how this game works basicaly my last post in this matter.
    I’ve stated again I’ve played in tournaments and countless levels of expertise from novice to finalist and there’s no one clear way to win you use any advantage to win and sometimes play and use tactics that are unconvential

    Yes Italy may loose up to 20ipcs worth of men to gain 19 from sacking France and 4 for the value of the teratory. But Endland would loose up to 50+ by stacking most of there fighters last I checked 20<50 for value correct?

    England is the ultimate b���� nation in this game. I don’t care if they lose their capital, as long as they can stall Germany/Italy for any number of turns, then they’ve already done their job.

    Also while yes America just sits at Gebralter that dosnt stop transports ferrying troops over and having part of the German Airforce covering France/Italy to counter any attack

    How would an air force counter attack a navy West of Gibraltar? Its to far away. And if your Air force is in France, then Russia must be VERY happy right now.

    All of France can fall in one Turn

    'IT. CANT. FALL. TURN 1. unless Germany takes it. Or you get lucky, but luck is no substitute for a good strategy.

    so I have no idea what this kid is talking about. And this is all round 1 threw 2 movements round 5 is to late to just have America

    America can be West of Gibraltar turn 3. And who cares when they arrive? Italy will see it coming and realize ‘oh ����, i need to turtle’. And turtleling will NOT get Italy into Africa.

    sit at Gebralter and think it’s doing anything.

    It does.

    The idea behind this is too flood Africa

    Cant. America. Unless you want to lose Italy.

    and push into Iraq ASAP.

    Blows my mind how people are so short sited

    Oh wow.

    with just seeing things one way and just reply with America rushs

    They do, its to good of an opportunity to pass up.

    in lol
    Anyways I’m done try it
    … It’ll work and mouths will drop other wise no point arguing with inexperianced players

    Uncrustable’s right. No point, arguing with people who clearly don’t know what their talking about.

    Once again, If Italy is going to get France, then you must choose one of the following as the Axis:

    -Lose Africa
    -Lose Italy
    -Go on the defensive in Europe (allies win)
    -Let Russia live

    Maybe stick with the 41 version eh? I can’t keep explaining how eerything you’ve just wrote no matter how hard you try or think is right won’t work or is work but it’s good to know atlest people are trying



  • You haven’t explained why the counter-tactics don’t work. All you’ve done is say.

    ‘Everything you say does not work. I get Egypt turn 2.’

    Please explain why these counter-strategies don’t work, because you’ve explained diddly-squat.



  • @Uncrustable:

    You also realize that in order for Italy to actually get 19 IPCs round 2 all if the axis must hold off from taking any France tts until France falls!
    This includes Normandy and south France (5IPCs)
    Meaning now 5 less IPCS less Germany on top of the 23 for not taking France G1

    IMO this strategy is so flawed it’s silly, and I’m beginning to wonder if we’re not just arguing with a couple noobs. (No offense but this has to he pointed out)

    Try reading and answering this again white. 😉

    First your G1 naval moves are risky, and statistically you are going to lose nearly all your planes round 1. So not only does Germany not take any France territories round 1 (28 IPCs or 23 if they take Normandy and S France) they also stand to lose a lot of their planes. Their also is a very good chance that enough UK planes survive to defend Paris until round 2. In that case Germany must send a very large amount of ground into France Again (because they just lost all their air) severely delaying any push into Russia. Italy wouldn’t get France until R2 and depending on what France territories the axis took they may not get more than 13 IPCs for it. With this UK can go 100% Africa buys with zero sealion threat, Italy doesn’t  stand a chance without German and now Germany can’t even help them without even further delaying Russia invasion. Russia is going to be a monster ad USA is going to be 100% pacific as now Japan is the axis only hope.

    The allies can afford to lose planes, as I stated earlier the game is a race for the axis. The more they piddle around the less likely their chances at victory. Even though your strategy at France May cost the allies some planes, it delays the entire axis by atleast 1 full turn if not more and allows UK to go 100% Africa.

    I would love to play a game against you on tripleA sometime.
    Low luck, best of 3, standard bid of 12 allies (sub 98, inf Sudan, inf New Guinea)



  • SZ 109 (UK scrambles fighter from Scotland) Subs have less than a 50% chance of sinking the transport.

    SZ 110 (UK scrambles 3 fighters from UK) You have a 45% chance of winning with an average 1-2 defending fighters surviving. Meaning UK can stack Britain against Italy round 1. And you just lost 6 planes.
    Retreat after 1 round your not going to kill a single fighter most games while losing 3 of your own. This also means UK can stack France, meaning you can’t take Normandy, south France, Tunisia or FIC until round 3 (after Italy takes France round 2)
    Meaning Germany loses 3 fighters and loses out on 28 IPCs round 1, and another 9 round 2.
    That’s 37 IPC plus 30 IPCs in planes on average. 67 IPCs lol.
    So UK loses 5 planes to hold France one round, it’s already ahead by 16 IPCs and the axis are severely delayed from anything in Russia or Africa and there is no sealion threat .

    Again the more I look at this the more flaws become apparent.

    Do yourself a favor and atleast post a game report, turn by turn. Otherwise I do not believe this has any merit.



  • @Uncrustable:

    SZ 109 (UK scrambles fighter from Scotland) Subs have less than a 50% chance of sinking the transport.

    SZ 110 (UK scrambles 3 fighters from UK) You have a 45% chance of winning with an average 1-2 defending fighters surviving. Meaning UK can stack Britain against Italy round 1. And you just lost 6 planes.
    Retreat after 1 round your not going to kill a single fighter most games while losing 3 of your own. This also means UK can stack France, meaning you can’t take Normandy, south France, Tunisia or FIC until round 3 (after Italy takes France round 2)
    Meaning Germany loses 3 fighters and loses out on 28 IPCs round 1, and another 9 round 2.
    That’s 37 IPC plus 30 IPCs in planes on average. 67 IPCs lol.
    So UK loses 5 planes to hold France one round, it’s already ahead by 16 IPCs and the axis are severely delayed from anything in Russia or Africa and there is no sealion threat .

    Again the more I look at this the more flaws become apparent.

    Do yourself a favor and atleast post a game report, turn by turn. Otherwise I do not believe this has any merit.

    Without those planes then U.S.A can all that much easier waltz into Italy.

    Whites strategy just keeps falling apart dosnt it?



  • I have no idea what rules or set up you guys play I play Alpha 3+ from Larry Harris not some 3rd party where some kidnaped up and posted his own Alpha 3 and also I play Table Top board game nothing Via computer. I’ll post a write up
    Later as I’m off to work.
    No idea where a Britsh sub comes from lol


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    🙂

    Whitwshadw, you might enjoy downloading triplea and trying out a few games online.



  • @Whitshadw:

    I have no idea what rules or set up you guys play I play Alpha 3+ from Larry Harris not some 3rd party where some kidnaped up and posted his own Alpha 3 and also I play Table Top board game nothing Via computer. I’ll post a write up
    Later as I’m off to work.
    No idea where a Britsh sub comes from lol

    I find your tone hilarious.

    I play the official second edition (same as the alpha project I believe)
    I think if were to come online and play a few games against some skilled opponents you would more readily see the flaws in you strategy.

    12 IPCs is about the average bid for the allies right now.

    Playing online or on the table makes no difference as far as rules/setup.
    It is the same game, playing online however affords you more time to play and often you can play 3 games or so online in the time required to play one game F2F.

    However I look forward to your write up.
    Try downloading tripleA in the meantime, it will be much easier and more accurate way to do your write up.

    And variance is right, you would enjoy tripleA.
    It takes some getting used to, but as I said it’s the same rules, same setup and same map.



  • I thought i’d dig up an old post about whites so called ‘experience’.

    @Whitshadw:

    Oh I agree with you… We have a group of 10 people who rotate some can make it as others cant so we normaly have soild 5 people play all experianced with countless games user our belts were 30+ … To you all an idea of age and experience

    30+ games? really now… I’d like to encourage you to use triple A and show us your so called ‘experience’ because you sure as hell haven’t shown us any evidence of it.

    We don’t play low luck really just count up cost vs cost and see if it’s worth the attack 9/10 times planes do get scrambled or England

    Clearly your play group hasn’t been on the A&A fanatic forums. Those forums comes up with long, detailed lists on why NOT to scramble. 90% of games, I’ve ever seen, England doesn’t scramble.

    is put in a position to atlest use there planes to attack some where also. I just see it highly unlikely that they would sacrifice all active planes in France the entire fbit of England would be lost in aircraft and to make matters worse they couldn’t attack the Italin Navy cause the counter would crush them.

    I suppose it’s a huge risk vs reward

    There is no risk. No such thing as ‘risk’, the battle of France is in the bag in allied favor.  if your going to talk about strategies, then any strategy you make based on ‘luck’ or ‘risk’ is clearly not a very good one.

    or something that Italins can Capitlize on a weaker Britsh player but if suppose the idea seems sound on why to do it

    also what tactical bomber? From where I only count 5 British fighters and 1 strategic bomber



  • @Uncrustable:

    @Uncrustable:

    You also realize that in order for Italy to actually get 19 IPCs round 2 all if the axis must hold off from taking any France tts until France falls!
    This includes Normandy and south France (5IPCs)
    Meaning now 5 less IPCS less Germany on top of the 23 for not taking France G1

    IMO this strategy is so flawed it’s silly, and I’m beginning to wonder if we’re not just arguing with a couple noobs. (No offense but this has to he pointed out)

    Try reading and answering this again white. 😉

    First your G1 naval moves are risky, and statistically you are going to lose nearly all your planes round 1. So not only does Germany not take any France territories round 1 (28 IPCs or 23 if they take Normandy and S France) they also stand to lose a lot of their planes. Their also is a very good chance that enough UK planes survive to defend Paris until round 2. In that case Germany must send a very large amount of ground into France Again (because they just lost all their air) severely delaying any push into Russia. Italy wouldn’t get France until R2 and depending on what France territories the axis took they may not get more than 13 IPCs for it. With this UK can go 100% Africa buys with zero sealion threat, Italy doesn’t  stand a chance without German and now Germany can’t even help them without even further delaying Russia invasion. Russia is going to be a monster ad USA is going to be 100% pacific as now Japan is the axis only hope.

    The allies can afford to lose planes, as I stated earlier the game is a race for the axis. The more they piddle around the less likely their chances at victory. Even though your strategy at France May cost the allies some planes, it delays the entire axis by atleast 1 full turn if not more and allows UK to go 100% Africa.

    I would love to play a game against you on tripleA sometime.
    Low luck, best of 3, standard bid of 12 allies (sub 98, inf Sudan, inf New Guinea)

    I would play with you uncrust, but for bidding, I don’t support bid placements in unoccupied territories (such as NG).



  • I would play with you uncrust, but for bidding, I don’t support bid placements in unoccupied territories (such as NG).

    Il be online after the hollidays probably quite a bit, il look out for ya 😉



  • This strat has many angles to look at (a lot of if’s). Much would depend on the order and success of the German G1 attacks, and the UK counter punches. If UK lost any planes on G1 (or UK1) they aren’t looking to stack Paris (would be too weak). Keep in mind that as the allies you don’t know if this is on the table or not, but we’ve seen it once or twice so would be aware of the possibility.

    I have to say that Whitshadw’s Atlantic attacks against the UK are more risky then I would normally do, maybe he wants UK to scramble to lose a couple planes so they can’t stack Paris (I personally don’t like risking German air power). With that said, he would also be in control of which battles are fought first, keeping his intent to weaken France for the Italians under wrap (a strat that could also be aborted, if it doesn’t feel right the Germans take Paris G1). I would also point out that the Germans would most defiantly be attacking at least one (maybe both) French coastal IC territories on G1. Germany needs the income, and you don’t want those French units to screw you (so please stop arguing that point). If (big IF) the allies don’t stack Paris, Italy would still get the 19 IPC bankroll for taking it It1 (would obviously be much less on G2 or It2). Another thing to point out is that normally the Paris assault takes two rounds, so it is very possible that the Germans won’t be able to strafe it for the Italians because the French folded to easy. It is also possible that the French fight hard, and the Germans have no choice but to leave it for Italy (it happens once in a blue moon).

    From UK’s perspective:
    It has been established that the UK could still attack Italian sz 97, and 96, but can’t use all her air power if she wants to land all available planes in Paris. Most planes can’t make the sea battles, and land in Paris (1-2 fewer UK planes change the odds rather dramatically in Paris). This would make the Italian sea battles more risky, but UK also knows that the Italians need those planes to sack Paris so would they scramble? At this point Italy may not know it is the UK’s intent to stack Paris, so it works both ways. If Italy can’t take Paris on It2, they would surly want to soften it up for a G2 attack

    More to think about,
    Did the UK 91 cruiser survive G1 to hit sz 96 w/air (didn’t see that as part of the German Atlantic campaign). If the UK loses a couple planes in either the G1 (scramble), or UK1 battles I don’t think the RAF lands in Paris (too weak) leaving it for the Italians. Either way the UK would probably still hit the bulk of the Ita navy though, so Italy would still be left in a pickle IMO, with a lot on their plate when their turn comes up (unless UK forgoes a naval attack and retreats to the Red Sea?). If the UK stacks Paris with air, and has a couple ships left in the Italian harbor after Taranto, Italy would need to chose attack ships (Brits & French), or attack Paris (for the Germans). I know the Italians can surround Egypt (with German air support), and have a chance to push through, but I also know the UK can bulk up to defend it by pulling units from India and S Africa, build an IC turn 1, or trade it. And yes the US can make a major impact in the Med, and very well may be parked off Gib on US3 (axis generally attack before or on turn 3), some variables there too. There are some games where UK attacks in the Pac and the US can’t leave DC until turn 4 (so they may go Pac where they can move). Also when the US is at Gib, they could also be going north to Norway, but the possibility of US in the Med will generally stall Italy.

    Anyway, I don’t think this was ever meant to be a sure fire way for the axis to win a game. It is another possible strat to throw the other side off their game, or do something they may not be real comfortable with (like risking the RAF in Paris). You guys could play 10 games via AAA, but he wouldn’t attempt this in every game (maybe 2-3 times if things fell right). Under the right circumstances it could work out giving Italy some extra income (we have seen it). A strong Italy can be an aid to the Germans defensively, and could help to distract the allies. I know that giving Paris to Italy could also stall a Barbarossa for lack of units at the front. Depends on what round you plan on sacking Moscow. Maybe you just want them to collapse back to Moscow to make them irrelevant for some time, build up and then sack em using their own IC’s to produce units, or by building a minor in say western Ukraine or Ros for a few more good men.

    Just thinking out loud that if the UK lost every ship and plane on the Atlantic side by round 2 either through attacks, or counter attacks, that has to be a major set back for the allies. Even if Italy doesn’t get Paris (Germany takes it round G2) and is partially neutered in the process the UK is nothing w/o the RAF, plus their is less allied air going to Moscow. Yea India and US could send some help, but Japan will be licking its chops.


Log in to reply
 

20th Anniversary Give Away

In January 2000 this site came to life and now we're celebrating our 20th Anniversary with a prize giveaway of 30+ prizes. See this link for the list of prizes and winners.
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys
T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 17
  • 18
  • 5
  • 22
  • 29
  • 13
  • 11
  • 16
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

65
Online

14.9k
Users

35.7k
Topics

1.5m
Posts