Unfortunately, my forum play is sporadic with all my kids as I prefer f2f -can actually ignore family and concentrate on rollin the bones.
You're America, you've been J1 DoW'd, what now…
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Don’t forget that depending on where Japan stations their fleet, 1 or 2 blocker destroyers can prevent US ships from participating in a suicide.
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what is J1DoW sorry I am new
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I’m not going to lie, I was hoping for a bit more information here when I came back from my week+ long vacation. If it’s not too abrupt, perhaps I could directly ask Cow, who is mulling around here again these days, for his suggestions on how best for the U.S. to retaliate, or what to keep in mind for them, against his own playbook for J1 DoW?
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There’s the tactic of using the Caroline DD to attack the ANZAC DD+Transport, and if the attack works, ANZAC is set back a lot…
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There’s the tactic of using the Caroline DD to attack the ANZAC DD+Transport, and if the attack works, ANZAC is set back a lot…
Especially without a NG inf bid.
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what is J1DoW sorry I am new
J1DOW
Japanese 1st turn Declaration Of War on western allies (Japan attacked on its first turn).
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There’s the tactic of using the Caroline DD to attack the ANZAC DD+Transport, and if the attack works, ANZAC is set back a lot…
That is right.
Anzac will have problems to get in the game early. -
I’m a rank (as in stinky) amateur at A&A 1940, but here’s my two cents for how America can respond to a J1 DoW:
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Establish a limited goal for yourself in Europe, and stick to it. Your ability to be effective in the Pacific depends on rapidly building up a US Pacific Fleet that can defeat the Imperial Japanese Navy; until you at least get to the naval break-even point, all the IPCs you drop in the Pacific are earning zilch for your team. That means you can afford to send 15 - 18 IPCs / turn across the Atlantic, tops. Any more than that and you’re not really playing a KJF strategy; you’re playing a muddled grabbag that happens to lean toward the Pacific. What can you do with 16 IPCs per turn? You could build a Mediterranean naval squadron to help the UK sink Italy’s surface boats, flipping a couple of national objectives your way. Or, instead, you could land troops in Morocco to march east across North Africa, helping to relieve Egypt. Or, instead, you could land troops in Norway to take away Germany’s bonus for Swedish ore. If you hold Norway, you can build a minor factory there and start marching troops over to Leningrad. Don’t try to accomplish more than one of these goals in the first five turns, and don’t try to invade the western European mainland – you just don’t have enough cash.
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If the Japanese swing their boats way out of position to take the Philippines and the East Indies on J1, you can probably afford to stack your Navy in Hawaii on A1, and you may be able to move out to the Carolines as early as A2. If it helps you seize the harbor a turn earlier, consider sending ANZAC destroyers to act as blockers to help keep the Japanese navy out of position. It’s very much a race.
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If the Japanese are more careful with their fleet positioning, then you won’t be able to get to the Carolines until A3. In that case, spend ANZAC’s income on a couple of loaded transports so that ANZAC can take control of the Carolines in case the big navies wipe each other out.
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There’s really not much you can do with UK Pacific or China when Japan starts mowing them down on J1. The Burma Road is going to be closed early and stay that way, and UK Pacific is going to be very short on income. Just play conservatively – use single infantry blockers as appropriate to help slow down Japanese mech. inf. / tanks, and otherwise be constantly on the retreat. Don’t throw away your armies just to make a point, even if it wins you an important territory for one turn. It’s not glamorous or fun to lose every battle, but just by keeping significant infantry reserves in your rear, you (a) force Japan to commit large numbers of infantry and transports to keep resupplying the south Asian fronts, which takes away from Japan’s naval purchasing power, and (b) have the option of reinforcing Moscow or the Middle East during the middlegame with your surviving infantry.
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Build lots of American subs. Because ANZAC can deliver loaded transports from close range, and because you have some airbases along the way to help with your fighter/bomber logistics chain, you really don’t need to protect an American carrier fleet against Japanese attacks. It’s cheaper to build a force that’s made up mostly of subs and bombers so that you can sink whatever Japan sends out to guard the islands, letting ANZAC pick off the actual Japanese ground forces. Do keep one loaded American transport someplace safe (Hawaii at first, then later the Solomon Islands) so that you can retake the Philippines or capture Java and build an American industrial complex there without having to wait for the transport to arrive from San Francisco.
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Ask the UK Europe player to make it a priority to help Moscow survive until turn 6-7, so the Siberian reinforcements can arrive. If the UK player has a choice between propping up India and propping up Moscow, you definitely want to go for Moscow – India is going to be small no matter what in this type of game, and the whole point of retreating 18 inf, 2 AA guns before they even clash with the Japanese is to get them safely to Moscow – don’t let the Axis pick off Moscow before they even get there.
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Is there a way to prevent India from falling too quickly? I just had a game where Japan attacked on turn 1, built up 7 transports I was never quite able to hit, stacked FIC with planes and build an AB and NB, and took India on turn 4 using all of Japan’s planes. The US wasn’t able to get there in time…I might have been able to delay India falling by 1 turn by putting a DD blocker, but India seemed unsalvageable, and after it falls, Japan becomes a monster and threatens the Middle East. What could I have done to stop this?
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Nice ideas Argo, however you can’t build ICs on islands.
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Is there a way to prevent India from falling too quickly? I just had a game where Japan attacked on turn 1, built up 7 transports I was never quite able to hit, stacked FIC with planes and build an AB and NB, and took India on turn 4 using all of Japan’s planes. The US wasn’t able to get there in time…I might have been able to delay India falling by 1 turn by putting a DD blocker, but India seemed unsalvageable, and after it falls, Japan becomes a monster and threatens the Middle East. What could I have done to stop this?
I don’t think you could have done much. As only Britain, to say nothing of what ANZAC, China, and the US can/should be doing when JP is so far west, you have three (really just two) options when this happens, as far as I know:
1:
Delay them taking India for one turn by recapturing the territory that their planes are needing to land in. This is usually either Yunan or Shan State, and requires that you put units in Burma. This necessarily is a suicide mission, but buys you one more turn. The force required in Burma is pretty circumstantial depending on what all ground units are in southern asia and whether or not your UK Pac air flew west to the middle east or stuck around in India.If Japan has taken Ceylon as the point where their planes are going to land, then there’s nothing you can do to delay it. But this is not optimal for Japan since either their planes are likely one entire turn away from being usable in the pacific again, or they also have to drop 15 IPCs for an air base on Ceylon on their attacking turn so that on the next they can get back to their air base in Kwangsi or FIC–not cheap.
2:
Just let them have the damn thing. Hold out as long as is practical, at least until J4 unless something awful has happened, but don’t throw those units away. Even if you turtle up on India, your economy is gone. They are likely convoying you with at least one sub, meaning your income is somewhere between 2 and 5 per turn. An occasional bombing run on your factory makes this as good as 0/turn. Instead, march west and do some good there by joining up with the British middle east (which hopefully has a factory somewhere) and help out Russia or kick Italy out of wherever they are, or make it to where Japan simply can’t push onto the Atlantic maps. It’s usually not worth it to just sit in Western India and wait, but in some games this can keep Japan from taking all of their units and heading toward ANZAC for a turn or two longer, which is the only thing that makes this waiting-in-western-india edge-case worth mentioning.3:
A smart Japanese player will never let you do this, so it’s hardly worth mentioning, but making a suicidal stand on India is worth it if Japan is going to have to take plane more than a couple of plane losses to take your capital. Again, a decent JP player will simply wait, but if you’re playing against someone who is in a hurry or is drunk, Japan losing some of its airforce in the first 5-6 turns is pretty awful for them. Moreover, if you kill a lot of their ground units, they now have mostly empty transports, which are hard to refill so far southwest for JP. India is worth another 8 IPCs/turn for Japan, and they only get way less than 10 IPCs (probably 5) when taking Calcutta. That’s not enough money to make putting themselves in a bad position or to taking significant losses worth it, especially since the allied economy is not affected by the loss of Calcutta since the UK Pac economy was already effectively 0 anyway.But that’s just what you can do as Britain. If Japan is sending 7 transports to India, full of units, they will need at least 2 boats to cover those transports. That’s not cheap. What JP is not doing is building as much navy as the US has been building, so that’s the US’s sign to move in. China probably isn’t all the way dead yet, and is causing at least minor problems. ANZAC can perhaps sneak up and take a money island or somesuch. The US can position itself one turn closer to Japan, or perhaps even do the Sea Zone 6 smash-in and land in Korea/Manchuria and convoy for one good turn if Japan has put its fleet and planes, or just its planes, in a bad position.
It really doesn’t take much to throw a stick on Japan’s spokes with only moderate effort in the first seven turns. If they take India, hopefully you just jammed a few Americans in china that will take at least a few turns to clear up. If you’re really lucky you can even permanently destroy some JP factories if they built them on Manchuria/Shangtung/Kiangsu. This is not a super common thing to see, but it’s something to always keep in mind.
ANZAC will need to be in full turtle mode, probably, if Japan can reload those 7 transports after India, as 14 japs landing in Western Australia is just about the limit of what they could possibly handle even with full defensive buys for every turn.
I can never take India against someone who isn’t dumb before J6 without leaving my flanks more vulnerable than I’m able to tolerate, but perhaps that’s because I play like a pansy. If Japan turns its glare of death as far west as India, make them pay for it, especially since as said before 7 loaded transports are not cheap. They have made sacrifices elsewhere. America will come crashing in at some point, just be sure to keep ANZAC alive to help pick up the pieces.
The problem I had, and still have, is when the US can finally move in US6-8, the climactic crash is still boils down to odds that are not much higher than 70% for the US, at best, which is basically the entire pacific theater coming down to one round of dice luck, and not so much strategy. Any time I see the pacific allies really turn the tide, it’s either through diceluck or by Japan not playing perfectly.
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Argo also had some points worth commenting on, but I’m out of time, so I’ll respond when I can. -
I’m a rank (as in stinky) amateur at A&A 1940, but here’s my two cents for how America can respond to a J1 DoW:
- Establish a limited goal for yourself in Europe, and stick to it. Your ability to be effective in the Pacific depends on rapidly building up a US Pacific Fleet that can defeat the Imperial Japanese Navy; until you at least get to the naval break-even point, all the IPCs you drop in the Pacific are earning zilch for your team. That means you can afford to send 15 - 18 IPCs / turn across the Atlantic, tops. Any more than that and you’re not really playing a KJF strategy; you’re playing a muddled grabbag that happens to lean toward the Pacific. What can you do with 16 IPCs per turn? You could build a Mediterranean naval squadron to help the UK sink Italy’s surface boats, flipping a couple of national objectives your way. Or, instead, you could land troops in Morocco to march east across North Africa, helping to relieve Egypt. Or, instead, you could land troops in Norway to take away Germany’s bonus for Swedish ore. If you hold Norway, you can build a minor factory there and start marching troops over to Leningrad. Don’t try to accomplish more than one of these goals in the first five turns, and don’t try to invade the western European mainland – you just don’t have enough cash.
I mostly agree.
I’d say 18/turn to the Atlantic side is definitely too much against a decent Japanese player. That’s three less submarines or nearly two less planes you’re building per turn, which is probably going to delay your ability to run in and smash up japan by at least one entire round, which can be damning. If I’m going to contribute anything much to the Atlantic as US, I’m for dumping the initial 52 into the Atlantic and then going straight 100% Pacific from then on, or at most 8-12/turn (on average) in the Atlantic, if even that.
With that first 52, as you said, you can help permanently keep Gibraltar (if necessary), or as you said snake your way up to Norway and cause no small amount of issues, or if the Axis make a mistake, let you blow up a major factory on Northern Italy or Western Germany or other GOTCHAs that are possible on that side of the map. I agree that Normandy is a bad call unless the Axis have made some pretty severe mistakes or risky plays, but let’s assume for this thread that the Axis are playing theoretically perfectly.
I don’t think the northern Africa marching is really all that useful in most games unless it’s just to keep them off of Morocco for the 6 IPCs it’s worth (1+NO), and even then. Too slow, and either Italy has crashed Egypt and your forces won’t get there in time to help, or Italy is retreating their troops back up to the continent they came from with their one transport that is left and there’s nothing left for you to do since Egypt doesn’t need relief.
- If the Japanese swing their boats way out of position to take the Philippines and the East Indies on J1, you can probably afford to stack your Navy in Hawaii on A1, and you may be able to move out to the Carolines as early as A2. If it helps you seize the harbor a turn earlier, consider sending ANZAC destroyers to act as blockers to help keep the Japanese navy out of position. It’s very much a race.
I either disagree completely or don’t fully understand you here.
I would call Japan putting its boats to take the Philippines the optimal position. Yes, you can get your meager starting U.S. navy to Hawaii, but there’s no way in hell Japan is going to let you take the Carolines A2 unless you do sacrifice the ANZAC cruiser/destroyer to do it. If you do sacrifice the ANZAC boats, japan kills them with planes and subs, and is still sitting the bulk of what they have on the Philippines J3 keeping you from doing much of anything useful at all A3. I would love for you to tell me how I my line of thinking is wrong, because as the US I feel most impotent A1-3.
- If the Japanese are more careful with their fleet positioning, then you won’t be able to get to the Carolines until A3. In that case, spend ANZAC’s income on a couple of loaded transports so that ANZAC can take control of the Carolines in case the big navies wipe each other out.
I don’t see the “wiping each other out” thing working at all well for the US J3/4.
I see this situation in 50%-60%+ of games. J3 has JP sitting on the Philippines, and has gotten the money islands/Malaya and is going all ass wild as Japan tends to do. It’s A3, and you have a fleet on Caroline. America cannot hit the Philippines, because their strength is simply too anemic to reliably deal favorable damage. And even if they do hit it, it’s not super juicy since Japan likely has its transports sitting off of FIC (which has a naval base/mIC) with a Kwangsi air base and any J3 naval purchases from the FIC factory defending them. Attacking Japan on the Philippines destroys some of the imperial navy, yes, but it destroys all of what america has yet to build and put west, and the trade off I never find it worth it for the US, at all.
Japan is making well over 60 at the end of J3, and the US 72 (assuming Brazil). China is probably under control to some degree (or completely wrecked) and UK Pac is economically crippled. Japan still has its transport fleet alive, meaning they can make Britain pay dearly for attempting to be too plucky with its units. They can rebuild a large part of their fleet that is either directly in the action or only 1 turn away while america is spending 1 or 2 turns getting back into position.
Can Japan on J4 potentially attack the Carolines and win against what is there? Potentially, but I see that they very often do not take the risk and move themselves that far out. Time is not really against Japan in the pacific, it’s against the Allies. Japan is served just fine by continued posturing if it means keeping the US at bay for an extended period of time. All the while, its economy is swelling dramatically, easily outpacing the US by J5/6.
However, if the US fleet is too heavily based on submarines on the Carolines A3, then Japan should attack, and that’s likely the tipping point leading to heavy momentum to an eventual Japanese victory.
- There’s really not much you can do with UK Pacific or China when Japan starts mowing them down on J1. The Burma Road is going to be closed early and stay that way, and UK Pacific is going to be very short on income. Just play conservatively – use single infantry blockers as appropriate to help slow down Japanese mech. inf. / tanks, and otherwise be constantly on the retreat. Don’t throw away your armies just to make a point, even if it wins you an important territory for one turn. It’s not glamorous or fun to lose every battle, but just by keeping significant infantry reserves in your rear, you (a) force Japan to commit large numbers of infantry and transports to keep resupplying the south Asian fronts, which takes away from Japan’s naval purchasing power, and (b) have the option of reinforcing Moscow or the Middle East during the middlegame with your surviving infantry.
I think I agree.
I usually see the Burma road reopened each turn until the 4th round, though. China can only annoy Japan and hope to slow them down. Britain is best served by keeping its options open and, indeed, eventually heading west if the situation gets too gross for them in the pacific.
- Build lots of American subs. Because ANZAC can deliver loaded transports from close range, and because you have some airbases along the way to help with your fighter/bomber logistics chain, you really don’t need to protect an American carrier fleet against Japanese attacks. It’s cheaper to build a force that’s made up mostly of subs and bombers so that you can sink whatever Japan sends out to guard the islands, letting ANZAC pick off the actual Japanese ground forces. Do keep one loaded American transport someplace safe (Hawaii at first, then later the Solomon Islands) so that you can retake the Philippines or capture Java and build an American industrial complex there without having to wait for the transport to arrive from San Francisco.
I think I disagree.
If you have all subs and bombers with only a smattering of other units, Japan will just withdraw just barely out of your immediate reach, then wait for you to move closer, counterattack, and destroy all those subs defending on a 1 with absolutely amazing effectiveness, they wouldn’t even need much more than half of their navy/air to do such a thing.
You can use the airbases to scramble to buy you a little more defense, for sure, but that’s not going to save you after a certain, rather early, point.
As said above you cannot build mICs on islands. The only viable points for US factories on that side of the map are Kwangtung (assuming India has fallen), taking Japan’s FIC mIC from them (good luck), and Korea (right in the damn bees’ nest).
If I am misunderstanding you, or am blind to the mechanics of the strategy, please elaborate.
- Ask the UK Europe player to make it a priority to help Moscow survive until turn 6-7, so the Siberian reinforcements can arrive. If the UK player has a choice between propping up India and propping up Moscow, you definitely want to go for Moscow – India is going to be small no matter what in this type of game, and the whole point of retreating 18 inf, 2 AA guns before they even clash with the Japanese is to get them safely to Moscow – don’t let the Axis pick off Moscow before they even get there.
Agreed.
The UK Pac air usually ends up in Moscow for at least a couple of turns along with lots of other british air in games I play in. Which, (as the assumption in this thread went) buys time for the 18 eastern ruskies to end up in Moscow. This forces Germany to start the long game, or perhaps even allows Britain/Russia to ensure they never reach the middle east.
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Thanks for the detailed feedback! Probably more than my thoughts deserve on this board. :-)
If I’m going to contribute anything much to the Atlantic as US, I’m for dumping the initial 52 into the Atlantic and then going straight 100% Pacific from then on, or at most 8-12/turn (on average) in the Atlantic, if even that.
That sounds fine to me – it’s not that I recommend spending 18 IPC per turn; it’s more about spending roughly 80 IPCs over turns 1-5. You need enough IPC in the Atlantic to create a viable fighting force, and not so much IPC in the Atlantic that your Pacific navy can’t get the job done.
If you do sacrifice the ANZAC boats, japan kills them with planes and subs, and is still sitting the bulk of what they have on the Philippines J3 keeping you from doing much of anything useful at all A3.
You’re not wrong. I still think getting to Caroline on A2 is worth the ANZAC sacrifice. Although you can’t make any useful attacks on A3, you are at least tying the bulk of the Japanese navy down to the Philippines, so that it isn’t available for shore bombardment, creeping up on India, ferrying troops to Amur, etc.
If you have all subs and bombers with only a smattering of other units, Japan will just withdraw just barely out of your immediate reach, then wait for you to move closer, counterattack, and destroy all those subs defending on a 1 with absolutely amazing effectiveness, they wouldn’t even need much more than half of their navy/air to do such a thing.
So, yeah, if you find that all your subs are being attacked by the Japanese navy, then your sub tactics are not working. When you’re advancing west as the US with subs and bombers, you need to use destroyers to screen the relevant naval zones, so that Japanese boats can’t get through to your main sub fleet. When you’re not advancing with subs and bombers, the point is to dead zone a bubble of sea zones around your fleet, giving your transports a chance to circle clockwise to the south of your fleet, running from Hawaii to Caroline to Solomon to Sumatra, so they can approach the money islands even if you don’t win a huge set piece naval battle. At the point where Japan withdraws “just barely” out of your reach from the Carolines, they’re now four sea zones away, which cedes a whole lot of territory.
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To your last point, there are two things worth mentioning:
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I have personally played but one game as Japan with German bombers in the Pacific, and dear lord, it was mean. That shuts down US destroyer blocks entirely unless they’re willing to commit a respectable little force to do the blocking. If they do put enough to discourage the bomber attacks, then Japan can kill whatever little target you’ve made with hyper-efficient submarines and planes, so the blocking force must be written off either way.There are other people on this board that swear by German bombers on JP air bases as well. If the German bombers are already outside Moscow and it is clear the slow burn against Russia/middle east is the only viable German strategy, it is not much skin off of Germany’s back to fly 1-4 of their big planes east to help out Japan. In fact, I would always ask for this help as Japan, and I gladly offer it as Germany (assuming the preconditions up to that point allow it).
I didn’t speak about this originally, but if you’ve got a submarine heavy american player trying to be clever with destroyer blocks, then this is what I see in posted games as well in a few games where I’ve managed to get all of my hardcore nerd friends together for a game.
2:
As you can destroyer block Japan, they can do the same to you. “Just out of reach” might not mean 4 sea zones away, but 3, or ideally only 2, with the blocks. Unfortunately, the turn order allows Japan great leeway here, since ANZAC goes after the US, and can’t open up the sea lanes for big brother like Germany can for Japan.I’ve never done a PBforum or PBEmail game with TripleA, but if you want to go through some of these motions I’d be up for it (or a live one for a couple of rounds every once in a while).
And yes, America can kill a blocker to allow the ANZAC to suicide or to possibly sneak in against some vulnerable transports (and the Pac allies must always be looking for opportunities like this), but we’re assuming perfect play in this thread, so that wouldn’t happen.
I posit that it is very difficult for two very experienced, equally skilled players playing US and JP against one another to find themselves in the situation where the US can, before A6 or even A7, get the drop on the JP fleet. Even on A7+, if you have been fiddling in the Atlantic, it may not yet be possible to begin a decisive move, which will end up losing you the game unless Germany/Italy has already been fairly well crushed.
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1: I honestly hadn’t thought of that. With 4 German bombers at Japanese airbases, I agree that a sub-heavy American strategy is garbage. I was relying on Japan not having a local can-opener.
2: What I have in mind is less ANZAC sneaking in to kill transports (I agree that skilled players would not leave any such transports lying around), and more ANZAC sneaking in to take money islands. Even if the Japanese fleet is only 2 sea zones away, that leaves room for the US to substitute an American destroyer for the Japanese blocker in the intermediate zone, potentially screening off the ANZAC transports from the Japanese navy. But again, that doesn’t work if German bombers can just pick off the American destroyer before Japan even moves.
I posit that it is very difficult for two very experienced, equally skilled players playing US and JP against one another to find themselves in the situation where the US can, before A6 or even A7, get the drop on the JP fleet. Even on A7+, if you have been fiddling in the Atlantic, it may not yet be possible to begin a decisive move, which will end up losing you the game unless Germany/Italy has already been fairly well crushed.
So is this a claim about the game being unbalanced? Are you saying that whenever Russia retreats its Siberian infantry, Japan should declare war on J1 and will thereafter enjoy favorable odds for an eventual victory?
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I think everyone here agrees that a J1 DoW forces the US into a nearly 100% Kill Japan First strategy, and even then, they won’t see the fruit of their labor for what is a very long time in terms of game rounds.
What I am claiming is that I myself don’t know how best to respond to this as America. I came here to hopefully have people enlighten me, because it seems, to me, that the US is forced into simply waiting, take little to no direct action to slow down Japan until at least A5, if not 6 or 7, and even then the odds are still not that great for you (I think I said ~70% earlier).
The following statements are not new to this board, so feel free to skip reading them:
I am 100% saying that if Russians retreat those inf, then Japan should absolutely do a turn 1 DoW. I think this is clearly superior to any situation where they wait until J3, and very probably superior to any J2 play.
That’s not to say sending the 18 ruskies back west is bad, it definitely is a very viable decision and will probably lock Germany out of Moscow (or allow the russians to actually push back if they built enough artillery and Germany is overextending itself).
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The most effective tactic is conceding and then J1ing your next opponent.
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Sometimes a thread on a forum reaches a high point, conclusion, where something has been discussed and/or decided, and something productive has finally come from all of the smelly nerds pounding away on their dirty keyboards.
Pherman’s post is the exact point at which this thread has become complete. I salute you.
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Sometimes a thread on a forum reaches a high point, conclusion, where something has been discussed and/or decided, and something productive has finally come from all of the smelly nerds pounding away on their dirty keyboards.
Pherman’s post is the exact point at which this thread has become complete. I salute you.
Thank you sir.
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