Rethinking Strategic Bomber and Tactical Bomber Roles

  • '17 '16

    I made more rooms between your ideas to help reading and separate them:
    @Chrisx:

    Thanks for the links, Baron.

    An interesting read and I’ve got a few ideas that don’t seem to have been thought of so far.

    In order to limit the use of SB’s in land battles, each attacking SB must be paired with an attacking land unit.
    This will prevent a weak land power from dominating combat with SB’s alone, stop SB’s from attacking non-front line areas and force a player to buy at least as many land units as SB’s in order to get the most out of his SB’s.

    Similarly, in order to attack a naval force each SB must be paired with an attacking surface warship.
    This will stop a weak naval power from dominating the waves with SB’s alone.

    SB’s can continue to attack infrastructure according to the OOB rules.

    The logic behind the above is that without at least some form of surface contact to pinpoint a (mobile) enemy location SB’s are blind and therefore ineffective (and it’s also good for play balance).

    Another idea is that attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters (in a similar way to submarines being unable to hit planes).
    Thus if a force of attacking SB’s found itself alone in an area with fighters it would have to retreat or be eliminated.
    SB’s would defend against fighters as normal and
    hits from interception combat during a strategic bombing raid would apply as normal OOB.

    Yes, it is very original ideas.
    Especially the paired 1:1 with ground or naval unit.
    It can be almost like the shore bombardment restriction: no more than the number of ground units unload in the amphibious assault.
    It is more in the spirit of A&A game mechanics.

    It is less the case with the following:
    I tried something similar with StratBomber on offense.
    They were attacking @4 as long as there is naval or ground targets but when there is nothing else than planes, their attack values drop to @1 (as in SBR).

    I only tested once.
    This wasn’t so popular amongst my fellow players.
    That’s why the next time I will probably come back to A3 rise to A4 if no enemy’s plane or paired 1:1 with Fg.

    The main reason is the hasardous effect of the first or second rounds of battle.
    If there is only 1 or 2 naval units defending with 4 planes (for instance) and the attacker have 8 StBs.
    A lucky first salvo (all@4) can be the demise of many planes while the second salvo will drop the bombers attack to almost nothing @1.

    That’s why I prefer a lower attack at the start, which can rise if circumstances gets better for the attacker.
    Not the reverse, it makes the attack planification with StBs to much depending on the first combat rounds luck.

  • '17 '16

    attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

    Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    That last idea is very interesting!  :-D

    Definitely reminds me of the bombardment pairing concept. It would make the bomber considerably less powerful though, so I see why you suggest to keep strategic bombing as OOB.

    What’s interesting to me is that a very similar Bomber exploit for Germany that people have noted in G40 has been around since AA50, but in that game there was a fairly decent Russian counter since armor was still relatively cheap and all nations began play at war. Even then though, I recall many games where the go to play for Germany was a steady bomber spam.

    The power projection and magnified attack advantage vs ships is potent, it isn’t quite exponential, but it can certainly feel that way with the doubling! In general 2 bombers together can just wreck it so much harder than 1, and when you start to carry it out over several rounds with a dozen bombers or two dozen etc reaching out across that kind of range, you start to see how the game can get unhinged air vs naval. Its probably analogous to the JTDTM in the older games, where sooner or later, the magnified power of a unit with reach and “can opening” potential, just becomes hard to ignore. Global is complicated enough that it’s sure to take longer to crack like that, but bombers are so potent and Germany is positioned a bit like USA in their ability to bomber halo around their core rich territories and project power around a wide field of the map.

    As people are discussing it really comes down to the fact that its harder and more expensive for the Naval defender to put up 4’s (fighter defense hit) in the water, than it is for the Air attacker to put 4’s (tacB and especially stratB) in the water.

    I mean for the Air attacker a strategic bomber costs 12 ipcs, and for 24 ipcs you can get a pair of Hit 4’s into the battle.

    To match this on defense, you have to spend 16 ipcs on a Carrier and 20 ipcs on fighters, 36 ipcs to at least match the hits in the first round of combat. That’s a fairly large disparity, and it doesn’t include associated cost of the transport and destroyer fodder that the naval defender needs to be effective with their force. Then take that same sort of equation and run with it over a few rounds, basically the Air attacker buying bombers is likely to outclass the Naval defender (spending less money on average with more reach/options for the heavy hitting 4s.) If it turns out that the bomber strategy gets stale and people feel frustrated with it, then some simple HR solutions could help the game.

    If you don’t want to change the ability of the bomber itself. I think the best idea proposed elsewhere, was for a carrier deck that holds 3 fighters. That was probably the most elegant solution I’ve heard. It has some ease of use advantages. First, you it doesn’t change the printed values on the battle board, or the unit cost/values printed on the map. Second, the carrier sculpts that come in the box can generally support 3 fighters if you rest them with their wings on the diagonal. Third, it doesn’t require you to change a whole lot of other rules to accommodate. It doesn’t alter the value of the bombers directly (so the battleboard and the rest of the rules can still remain. It change the OOB unit distribution on the mapboard. It’s just an feature of the carrier deck to put up better defense. It could potentially provide some interest with the opening combats though, as the ability to land a 3rd fighter on a carrier deck might allow for some novel openings. Baron has discussed the idea before. I don’t know that you’d really need to change much else for the concept to be viable in G40, at least then you could match the bomber buyer more easily on the water. You’d still incur the cost of the carrier deck to activate them, but the cumulative cost wouldn’t be as high for the hit 4’s, relative to the dude buying all the bombers.

    Right now people use Air Bases as a way to get more three hit 4’s in the water on the scramble. But Air Bases are expensive as well, and they are limited to one per territory. It’s still possible for the bomber buyer to outclass this on hit 4’s, given enough time/bombers. Not to suggest that the bomber strategy is so out sized right now, that everyone would change the game like this. But since there doesn’t seem to be much discussion of a 1940 third Ed. game, HR stuff is probably the best way to go if you want to see bombers work in a less overpowered way, then at least the carrier could be brought more into line with it, giving players a way to get fighters additional fighters into the water.

    I think either triple fighter carriers to match the bomber hits at 4, for less cost over time. Or something like this last suggestion to just to limit the ways in which bombers can attack other planes. Bombers dog fighting is kind of silly anyway granted hehe. But I don’t know which approach is best. I would like a solution that requires the fewest necessary changes, and has the widest application on this and other maps. I wish a third edition was considered by publisher, so some of these ideas could be addressed officially, but until then they’re interesting to explore.

  • '17 '16 '15

    The third fighter would work. My only concern is fleets have the defensive advantage as it is ( well evidently not with the bomber spam) but fleet to fleet. It would be a simple approach which is best.
    I’m gonna try Baron’s Tac A4 D3 +1 A to tank when paired with tank. SBR A3 +1 when paired with fighter or no enemy air. Cruiser gets 1 AA shot at 1 (one plane only). Fighters A/D 2 on escort /intercept. SBRs stay at 1.

    Should be able to set it up tomorrow unless Germany rebounds from the ass kicking the lucky Russians just gave them. :)


  • @amanntai:

    There goes bombing the mainland/London to prep for an invasion…

    Not really because you can do that with tactical bombers instead.


  • @Baron:

    attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

    Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

    That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

  • '17 '16

    @Chrisx:

    @Baron:

    attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

    Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

    That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

    This can be restricted to: “in Naval Combat, cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”


  • @Baron:

    @Chrisx:

    @Baron:

    attacking SB’s cannot inflict battle casualties on fighters

    Why not make it more general such as “cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”?

    That sounds even more sensible. Arguably, though,  there’s always the chance that bombers could eliminate unprepared enemy planes that are on the ground (as happened in sneak attacks like Pearl Harbour and the first few hours of Germany’s attack on Russia) but as that’s rare it’s probably best to ignore it in favour of a good general rule.

    This can be restricted to: “in Naval Combat, cannot inflict battle casualties on other planes”

    Except that the same exception occurs there too. I believe in the Battle of Midway Japanese bombers destroyed some planes aboard Yorktown. Maybe allow planes to be hit by bombers only on the first wave of attacks?


  • Well you could make it where when bombers are attacking fleets with carriers and planes, have it where if bombers roll a 1 on first round of combat only, the plane or planes are destroyed due to they didn’t launch in time.


  • But now it’s just getting real complicated.

    I still stand by the simple fix of keeping all OOB stats the same but only allowing Bombers to participate in the first round of combat.


  • Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.


  • @SS:

    Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.

    How long do these games take?

  • '17 '16 '15

    Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

    Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

    TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

    Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

    If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

    Global 40 SBR.zip

  • '17 '16

    Incredible job Barney!
    I cannot believe that TripleA can be modified as you did.
    Thanks for the hardwork.
    I will download this as soon as I can.
    Keep me posted after your playtests.

  • '17 '16 '15

    Well I’m not done with my test game yet but it looks like the Allies are going to pull it out.

    Germany didn’t buy as many bmbrs as usual but that may have been due more to taking moderate air losses the first turn (4 planes) and Italy getting spanked in the Med. Germany built a Med fleet to try and regain the initiative and after successfully destroying a UK tranny fleet off of Guiana, was obliterated off the west coast of Gibralter by a slightly smaller Canadian fleet which suffered a mere dstry loss. Throwing good money after bad, they built a minor in Yugo and with predictable results that failed as well.

    Anyway they didn’t really have the dough to go bmbr buying. But poor strategic decisions aside, I think I would have bought a few less but still invested in them. Germany kept their TACs on the eastern front with a fighter or two for when the bmbrs came by while the bmbrs and ftrs mostly stayed in W Germany. The RD 1 attacks weren’t effected because everything is paired anyway. Didn’t do any SBRs on London.

    Japan had a -1 on the Yunnan attack wich doesn’t effect much. However with her huge air force she bought more bmbrs to pair with her ftrs. The TACs were deadly and I loaded some CVs with both TACs or ftrs for offense or defense punch. She SBR’d India to good effect since India didn’t want to risk her ftrs. US went fairly bmbr heavy as well. UK had a couple and Italy and ANZAC each had one.

    The 3 attack definitely got my attention. A bit of a mind trip after playing at 4 all these years. While some attacks were made unescorted I usually had ftrs with them. It seemed to effect Italy more since she was having to keep her ftrs at home for the most part. Also she never really got a chance to get a 2nd one. I was playing a tech heavy game and when you get Hvy bmbrs you really appreciate the extra roll.

    So it definitely slows them down a bit but their still effective at SBR’s if they get through. A little more chancy taking out solo blockers. It was fun sending solo TACs to boost small counterattacks. Next game I’ll try and get in some more SBR’s and crank up some U-boats. Get UK to trade some dstrys. See how that goes. I guess you could pair sub and bmbr +1 for a little more punch to take out blockers but that doesn’t seem very realistic to me.

    Anyway it’s fun trying something new. Makes you think a little different. I’m a low to intermediate player but it seems like a nice adjustment to me. I recommend giving it a try.

  • '17 '16

    @barney:

    Well I’m not done with my test game yet but it looks like the Allies are going to pull it out.

    The RD 1 attacks weren’t effected because everything is paired anyway. Didn’t do any SBRs on London.

    The 3 attack definitely got my attention. A bit of a mind trip after playing at 4 all these years. While some attacks were made unescorted I usually had ftrs with them. It seemed to effect Italy more since she was having to keep her ftrs at home for the most part. Also she never really got a chance to get a 2nd one. I was playing a tech heavy game and when you get Hvy bmbrs you really appreciate the extra roll.

    So it definitely slows them down a bit but their still effective at SBR’s if they get through. A little more chancy taking out solo blockers. It was fun sending solo TACs to boost small counterattacks. Next game I’ll try and get in some more SBR’s and crank up some U-boats. Get UK to trade some dstrys. See how that goes. I guess you could pair sub and bmbr +1 for a little more punch to take out blockers but that doesn’t seem very realistic to me.

    Anyway it’s fun trying something new. Makes you think a little different. I’m a low to intermediate player but it seems like a nice adjustment to me. I recommend giving it a try.

    Thank you for the interesting report.

    If you believe, as I do, that SBR is OP and can partly explain why StB can be very effective, you can read and compare some stats between various SBR OOB rules in this post:
    Re: German bomber strategy - How to play and How to counter
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35390.msg1385642#msg1385642


  • @amanntai:

    @SS:

    Ya I hear ya amanntai. But I only play the more advanced games. Even more advanced than HBG’s Global 39.

    How long do these games take?

    Games take 12 to 24 hours.


  • Ss…Yep…but last 3 games, we played 14 hours and played between 13 and 15 turns. The last games finish in a draw. I played Germany and at the end, only southern and Moscow still under control of Russia but soviets player stacked all his infantries in Moscow. Infantry défend at 3 in Russian cities but I hate this rules and I’m going to remove it from the rules.

  • '17 '16

    @crusaderiv:

    Ss…Yep…but last 3 games, we played 14 hours and played between 13 and 15 turns. The last games finish in a draw. I played Germany and at the end, only southern and Moscow still under control of Russia but soviets player stacked all his infantries in Moscow. Infantry d�fend at 3 in Russian cities but I hate this rules and I’m going to remove it from the rules.

    I’m promoting Anti-Tank Gun instead: A1 D3 Cost 4, +1D to Infantry paired 1:1.
    Russia must pay to get the boosted defensive bonus, it is not free.
    ATG is figuring for all extra defensive measures deployed by Russian in WWII.

    Germany can also built an Atlantic Wall kind when stacking ATG+INF with them if they wish to pay.


  • Yes baron.in fact i have su 76 boosting Infantry + 1. Russian player may buy siberian Infantry attack at 2 in the first round of combat but only during winter. Same price as regular Infantry.

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