Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes

[CWO Marc]

@Baron:

Thanks for your fast answer, as interesting as usual. […] I’m really glad that historical accuracy doesn’t plainly contradict this idea.Â

My pleasure.  Another factor which fits this model, but which I forgot to mention yesterday, is the operating cost of warships after they’ve been built.  The main component of those expenses are crew costs (training and pay), consumables (especially fuel and ammunition) and maintenance.  An aircraft carrier with a crew (including its air wing) totaling around 3,000 people is obviously going to be a lot more expensive to operate than a sub manned by 60 guys, and a battleship with a crew of 2,700 men is likewise going to be a lot more expensive to operate than a destroyer manned by 330 people.

Fuel consumption is another cost factor.  A little dinky 900-ton Flower-class corvette could cross the entire Atlantic (about 3,500 nautical miles) on a single load of fuel, whereas the 70,000-ton Yamato class battleships were such fuel hogs that the Japanese Navy kept them at anchor for most of the war, since sending them on a single mission took an appreciable bite out of Japan’s precious oil reserves.  Subs were generally speaking fairly fuel-efficient vessels, which was necessary because their missions often required them to operate on their own for long periods of time.  Size, however, doesn’t always correlate well with fuel consumption.  Cargo ships can be very large, but they generally have low-powered engines that don’t consume much fuel.  WWII destroyers were comparatively small ships, but they had powerful engines and they often dashed around at high speed, so they were known for their voracious fuel appetites.  This was especially true for twin-screen fleet destroyers (single-screw destroyer escorts were slower and probably more economical), and in the US Navy it became a practice for thirsty destroyers in operational zones to refil their tanks from bigger warships who happened to be nearby.  The Iowa class battleships were half-jokingly referred to as “armoured oilers” by destroyermen.

[barney]

Hi Baron

Just to reply to your message I guess I don’t really have an opinion other than to say it’s worth a playtest.
That and as voiced earlier the higher price may make them less attractive to some.

I say give it a try :)

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Hi Baron

Just to reply to your message I guess I don’t really have an opinion other than to say it’s worth a playtest.
That and as voiced earlier the higher price may make them less attractive to some.

I say give it a try :)

About this,
you seems pretty skilled about Triple A.
I have a few short questions (but with long answers) about the 1942.2 version of Triple A:

1- Is it hard to change the cost and combat value of 1 single unit, for instance submarine?

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2- Is it possible, without too much effort, to delete the necessary pairing of plane with Destroyer to hit submarines?
… Letting plane acting as the naval units, without restriction on unsubmerged submarines?

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3- Is there a way to restrict the Destroyer blocker capacity to Surprise Strike and Hostile Sea Zone, so a Submarine would be able to submerge during the general combat phase?

4- Is it hard and complex to learn how to modify some aspects of a Triple A game?

Thanks for your reply.

[barney]

@ Baron

I don’t think it really matters what game you’re playing as far as changing things. I’m not familiar with 1942.2. I guess it’s the new version of the original?
Anyway

1  Changing the cost and combat values is pretty simple.

2  I just tried this and unfortunately no

3  Probably not

4  Yes and no. Some things are relatively easy as listed in 1 above. Movement, IPC values, turn order are some others.
    If you dl Pact of Steel 2 Veqryn explains how things work in the xml quite well. There is quite a bit of newer stuff since then but is a little harder to find. At least for me. I think you have to go into       
    sourceforge where they work on the code and I haven’t figured that out yet.

The destroyer and sub capabilities are hardcoded into triplea so you can’t do as much with them. You can make other naval units have ASW capability but you can’t give ASW to a plane on it’s own.
    I don’t think you can pair the 1:1 ratio which is unfortunate as it would be really cool to incorporate DK’s sub and destroyer rules.

Currently the dev’s are doing some good work on the AI and  the most recent wwI game. But I don’t think there will be a lot of new features other than those any time soon unless someone else joins
    the team.

I could be wrong on some of these points but that’s my basic impression.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks for the answers Barney,
as far as I can see you were curious to explore some features discussed here and there on Subs, planes and destroyers.

About Transports, do you know if there is some way to switch them from no combat value to letting them get Def @1, 1 hit?
Does the taken last is hardcoded into tripleA?

[barney]

You could change transports pretty easily. They’re not hardcoded.

[baron Münchhausen]

Do you mean that you can just add a “1” on defense and it will treated as a regular unit, with no auto-die and no taken last?

And if I prefer that it must be chosen last but still have combat value and a defense factor @1, it is also possible?

[barney]

@ Baron

My last post is incorrect.
There is a ww2v2 ruleset where transports defend at 1 and can be taken as hits whenever.
There is a ww2v3 rule set where the transports can’t defend and are taken last.
These appear to be hardcoded.

I’ll look into it some more.

Here is some more info

Major Differences Between ww2v2 revised and ww2v3 1. In ww2v2 transport units are just like any other unit, and can be used as fodder by being taken casualty first in combat, however in ww2v3 style rules, transports have no defense power and may only be taken casualty after all other non-transport ships are dead.

2. In ww2v2, you can build fighters on carriers if you build both at the same time, and if you build a carrier you can move existing fighters to carriers when you build a carrier in the adjacent sea zone. In ww2v3, you can build new fighters onto existing carriers as well as new carriers, but you may not move existing fighters onto new carriers, as instead you can non-combat move the fighters to where the carrier will be built, then place the carrier under it.

3. In ww2v2, when you strategic bomb or rocket a factory, you immediately reduce the enemy’s PUs. In ww2v3, you do damage to the factory, up to twice the value of the territory. Each point of damage reduces the number of units that can be produced there by 1. The player may repair the damage during their purchase phase.

4. In ww2v2, when you fly over a territory with an AA Gun, the gun gets to fire at each aircraft. In ww2v3, the AA Gun only fires when you attack or bomb the territory it is in.

5. In ww2v2, submarines and transports block the movement of other sea units. In ww2v3, submarines and transports do not block the movement of other sea units, and may be bypassed or attacked.

6. In ww2v2, technology is rolled for, and if you miss nothing happens. In ww2v3, you buy tech tokens, and at the beginning of your turn you roll for each of your tokens. If you roll a 6, you discard all tokens and roll a second time to see which technology you get.

7. In ww2v2, no land units may retreat from an amphibious assault. In ww2v3, the non-amphibious units may retreat.

8. In ww2v2, bombardment immediately kills units, and you are allowed infinite bombardments. In ww2v3, a unit hit by bombard may return fire against the attacking units before dying, and the number of bombards is limited to the number of land units being dropped off from that sea zone.

9. In ww2v2, air units can hit submarines. In ww2v3, an owned destroyer must be present for air units to hit submarines.

10. In ww2v2, submarines may choose to submerge at the end of each round of combat. In ww2v3, they may choose to submerge before each round of combat (and consequently, you can’t kill them without a destroyer).

11. In ww2v2, submarines fire at the beginning of combat, and if there is no enemy destroyer then any casualties are removed immediately. In ww2v3, submarines get their surprise strike both on offense and defense, and both can be nullified by the presence of an enemy destroyer (so in ww2v3, if attacking an enemy sub, the attacker with a sub + destroyer, who’s sub hits, would immediately kill the defending sub with no chance for it to return fire).

So in v2 you could have planes hit subs. Looks like each version does a little bit of both of what you want to do but you can’t merge them.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

[barney]

You can create a new unit that has transport capabilities that defends on 1. IDK if you could force it to be taken last or not, I think maybe you can. You could always player enforce though.

IDK about the scenario. I guess I wouldn’t allow the trannys to block, but if you were playing with the hybrid rules I guess it would be a standoff ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

You can create a new unit that has transport capabilities that defends on 1. IDK if you could force it to be taken last or not, I think maybe you can. You could always player enforce though.

IDK about the scenario. I guess I wouldn’t allow the trannys to block, but if you were playing with the hybrid rules I guess it would be a standoff ?

Interesting…
As far as I understand, such TripleA will offer 1 transport at no combat value (as OOB) and 1 Transport with A0 D1, 1 hit acting like any other combat unit (such as Classic Transport), right?

This created transport won’t have the feature such as cannot block amphibious assault, and can be ignored by warships.
Am I right?

The usual solution, that I see is that the defending player will not choose to loose her Destroyer but would discard a Transport (acting like fodder unit, as in Classic time). And since a Destroyer is still present, then attacking transport have to retreat or be destroyed.
The case is over.
It is the obvious choice for the defending player, but I assumed he didn’t know his rolls when he put DD behind casualty line because he thinks his Transport are lucky and can survive.

But played as a Transport with D1 and 1 hit but with Taken Last rule and other feature of the non-combat unit (such as cannot block other enemy’s units), the case is fuzzy.
If the Destroyer wasn’t there, there will be no need to attack the 3 transports. And the amphibious assault would be performed.
But let’s suppose the attacker wants to kill these 3 transports anyway, while making an amphibious assault…

Maybe it is the way to see it.
As long as the invaders don’t face any warships or planes on defender side, the amphibious assault can still go on.
But all transport defending roll which hit must be allocated.

So, if both StBs were shoot down 1 in first and the other in the second round.
(Suppose they were unlucky, and get no hit.)
And on this last combat round, all three transports rolled “1”.
The 2 others hits, must still be allocated to attacking transports.
So, no more amphibious assault.
But, if at least 1 attacking transport would have survived at the end of the final combat round, then the amphibious assault can go forward.

Does it makes sense to you too?

However, it is different treatment if it was Submarines defending the SZ.
So, should we treat such Transport as the OOB rule on Sub?:
@Krieghund:

Romulus is correct.  The key concept is that subs can be ignored during movement.  From the FAQ:

Q.  Let’s say I attack a sea zone that contains both enemy subs and surface warships.  If at some point during the battle, all of the enemy surface warships are sunk and only subs remain, can I ignore the subs and end the battle?
A.  No.  Subs (and/or transports) can only be ignored during movement, and you can only ignore them when there are no surface warships in the sea zone with them.  When you attack a sea zone, you attack all of the enemy units in that sea zone.

So if there are only enemy subs and/or transports blocking your amphibious assault, you can choose to ignore them and they won’t block it.  However, if you choose to attack them (or if there are also surface warships there and you are forced to attack them), you must defeat all of the defending units before your amphibious assault can proceed.

In a nutshell, subs will only fail to block your assault if you never attack them in the first place or if they submerged after you attack them.  Once you attack them, they will block it until they are destroyed or they submerge.

The wording of step 3 in the amphibious assault sequence implies that you can end the sea battle if only defending subs remain.  This is of course incorrect, as subs can only be ignored during movement.  There is a pending erratum to change this wording of to “If there was no sea battle or the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy units except transports and submerged submarines, …”.  I don’t yet know when this will be published.

[barney]

I’d say yes to all

[baron Münchhausen]

So here is the complete roster with the minimal changes to planes, Destroyers, Submarines and Transports:
Infantry A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery

Mechanized Infantry A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank

Artillery A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

Anti-Aircraft Artillery A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 5, 1 hit,
up to 3 @1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, whichever the lesser

Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz or allow MechInf to blitz on 1 on 1 basis.
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.

Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 8
Surprise Strike (except when ASV is present),
Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target),
No Hostile Sea Zone (except when ASV is present),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 8
Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis:
blocks Surprise Strike and No Hostile Sea Zone
but cannot cancel Sub Submerge (which will happen for defending Subs in regular combat phase after the attacker rolls, if a DD block the Sub’s Surprise strike).

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 10
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 11
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 12
Shore bombardment @3

Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 12
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 14, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 20, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4

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Now, here is a more interesting alternate scale of cost for those which wanted more warships for their bucks, it keeps all the combat ratio between them very close to OOB :
Instead of having a bottom cost of 8 IPCs for Naval units, the base cost is put this time at 7 IPCs.
In addition, Destroyer operate slightly differently: 1 DD block all Surprise Strike, but 1 DD block 1 Sub’s Submerge and for the first round, 1 DD blocks 1 Sub’s Stealth Movement.

Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike (except when at least 1 ASV is present),
Submerge (except when Subs is blocked 1:1 for the first combat round only) :
After the first defense roll @1, it can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round, happening in phase 2 Surprise Strike or Submerge.)
No Hostile Sea Zone (except when ASV is blocking each Submarine on a 1 Sub per 1 DD basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel:
blocks all surprise strike, on all Submarines,
cancel on first round only Sub’s Submerge on a 1 DD:1 Sub basis (defense roll@1 in first round, can submerge in phase 2 of the second round),
block on a 1:1 basis Sub’s No Hostile SZ Movement.

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty or can works as classics: casualty taken at the owner’s choice,

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 9
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 10
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
OffShore bombardment @3

Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 11
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 12, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 14, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 17, 2 hits
OffShore bombardment @4

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I really think this scale can be funnier (letting people buying more impressive sculpts than just tiny ground units) while still requiring the same 8 IPCs for transports investment, this make them costlier than the basic fodder unit at 7 IPCs.
This can give choice about the “taken last rule”  to let the player’s hands all the decision on casualty.
The combat values of each units will speak for itself to help the player minimize the effect of losses and maximize the potential combat values it can preserves.
The cost and combat values most of the time will be enough incentive, so the “unit general behaviour” (motives for buying it, offensive or defensive combat function, Non-Combat Move and usual casualties order) works in the way intended for this kind of unit.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

In games where we’ve played with “Classic” transports this battle probably wouldn’t have occurred. For the sake of argument we’ll say it did. The attacker’s transports would be forced to retreat because they cannot attack.

I say the battle wouldn’t happen because if we were playing a game with “classic” transports most players I’ve played with wouldn’t make that assault knowing the transports will have a defense in that instance.

In my FTF games where transports have a defense score HR, no one is buying AP’s for “blockers” and generally when AP’s are bought their almost always in combination with land units in the purchase phase.

As of right now I’m planning to use my 8-8-8 rule with 3-1-2-8 for subs formula that you have recently mentioned Baron.

My last game had one single HR which was just for ease of play because he was pretty much a newbie to anything later than the Hasbro CD rom. That HR was that “All subs are treated as regular naval units”. That was just to speed the game up and it wasn’t all that serious of a game.

Hope that helps.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

@Baron:

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

In games where we’ve played with “Classic” transports this battle probably wouldn’t have occurred. For the sake of argument we’ll say it did. The attacker’s transports would be forced to retreat because they cannot attack.

I say the battle wouldn’t happen because if we were playing a game with “classic” transports most players I’ve played with wouldn’t make that assault knowing the transports will have a defense in that instance.

In my FTF games where transports have a defense score HR, no one is buying AP’s for “blockers” and generally when AP’s are bought their almost always in combination with land units in the purchase phase.

As of right now I’m planning to use my 8-8-8 rule with 3-1-2-8 for subs formula that you have recently mentioned Baron. Hope you get a chance to play test it sooner than later.  :-)

My last game had one single HR which was just for ease of play because he was pretty much a newbie to anything later than the Hasbro CD rom. That HR was that “All subs are treated as regular naval units”. That was just to speed the game up and it wasn’t all that serious of a game.

Hope that helps.

Do you play your HR Transport exactly as Classic TPs?
Are you sure that it is not an hybrid which apply the movement rule of OOB TPs, such as cannot block enemy movement ( the same way as it is for Sub)?

About the case scenario above, I believe that if there is some kind of mutual destruction and Transports are left on both sides, it should be played as it is with OOB Subs.
You decide to fight them, then you must sink them all to perform the amphibious assault,
OR
you decide to ignore them (as the rule allows it : you  need to bring combat units with attacking TPs), so you conduct a direct amphibious assault.

Same treatment for TPs A0 D1 C8, 1 hit. In the above case, it means the 2 attacking TPs must retreat.

Does it seems right to you?

Now we get a simplification of rules on amphibious assault with such hybrid TPs (A0 D1, 1 hit): only 2 ways of playing it.
OOB has 3 ways of doing it :
1- vs Warships, must fight
2- vs Subs only, can fight or ignore them, but need to bring a combat unit (this last point was added in the 2nd edition OOB rules, I believe).
3- vs TPs only, can fight or ignore them, but no need to bring combat unit.

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Another question  about your 8-8-8 config.
Will you still use the “a sub cannot be hit by planes unless a DD is with them”?
Or do you agree with me that it is no more required with Sub A3 D1 C8?

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is the basic grounds units cost.
Infantry Cost 3
Mechanized Infantry  Cost 4,
Artillery Cost 4
Anti-Aircraft Artillery Cost 5,
Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6

Now there is 3 scales ( bottom 8+OOB / bottom 7+ near advanced shipyard / bottom 6 + 3/4 OOB cost) which can works between Naval units but their impact on the board (vs ground units and additional money) need to be tested:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 8
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 8

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 10
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 11
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 12

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 12
1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 14
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 16
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 20

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Proportionate to 7/8 of naval and planes OOB:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 9
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 10
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 11

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 12
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 14
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 17

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Proportionate to 3/4 OOB, the lowest naval is at same cost as Tank:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 6
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 6

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 8
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 9
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 9
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 10

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 11
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 12
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 15

I prefer the middle one. The cost are within tech margin and keep each unit on 1 IPCs incremented cost.
The others cost scale have even 3 units at the same cost!
Also 7 is a middle number between OOB cost of Sub at 6 and DD at 8 IPCs.
In addition, TP A0 D1 C8 start at higher level than usual fodder, which make it uninteresting fodder too.
On average you pay  similar prices to get the cheaper units.

[baron Münchhausen]

I play-tested the ideas below:

SUBMARINES A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike, (blocked when at least 1 Destroyer or Anti-Sub Vessel is present),
Submerge, instead of rolling for a Surprise Strike attack (blocked by ASV on a 1:1 basis for the first combat round only),
Stealth Movement: No Hostile Sea-Zone (except ASV can block Submarine Stealth movement on 1:1 basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Reality wrecking destroyer rules need a revamp…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34169.msg1372793#msg1372793

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel: each ASV blocks Surprise Strike capacity of all enemy’s Submarine units present.
Cancel Sub’s Submerge on 1 DD:1 Sub basis for the first combat round only
(When it occurs, defending Subs rolls a Defense @1 in the first round, and any surviving Subs can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round.)
Cancel Sub’s Stealth Movement on 1 DD: 1 Sub basis for Combat or Non Combat Move, all additional Sub units can perform a Stealth Movement as usual.

TRANSPORT A0 1Def@1 Maximum per TPs group M2 Cost 8, 1 hit
A transports group get a single defense roll @1/round along with defending warships
(for this single defense roll, friendly transports are all considered being part of the same defending player’s group),
and each transport unit can be taken individually as casualty. As long as their is still 1 TP remaining, it can roll this single defense @1.
Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1373212#msg1373212

The Submarines in defensive combat situations always rise the question of taking them as casualties or not (since it has such a low defense @1 and unable to hit planes).
The option of submerging after first round (even when enemy’s Destroyers are present, as allowed according to the HR above, not OOB) is still a tough call.
It clearly leaves all tactical decisions to the player.
That is quite funnier than all Sub rules I tested before (and I tested numerous variations, believe me! :-D):
will you take the Sub unit as fodder or let your Destroyer taking the hit, which gives the opportunity to submerge and fight another day (on offense with a high @3)?

No complex rules with planes vs Subs either.

I can see it work, people. The Submarines is not always taken as fodder instead of a friendly destroyer, letting Destroyer be the main sea fodder. And the main reason is that you don’t want to loose you more offensive efficient Sub units in a desperate combat.
Sometimes, it is a tough call: giving an additionnal combat round to your Battleship, so you can have one last chance to make a hit @4, or simply submerging the Subs (sacrifying your BB) knowing that there is an enemy Battleship which will be without escorting DD and very vulnerable to First Strike Shots when your Subs will be on offensive.

The overall units interation is simpler while the Submarines have a much more offensive role, if you don’t use them as fodder (which are not cheaper than Destroyer, since they are at the same cost.)

You can easily play Defenseless TPs at 7 IPCs and both DDs and Subs at 8 IPCs, if you prefer.
You will still get the same simpler interactions between combat units (Subs, DDs, planes).

I forgot to mention that according to the HR above, owner choose the order of all casualties, including transports.  So all the tactical choices are in his hands.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks for the +1.
It is really appreciated.
I hope everyone have a chance to test it, the sub rule especially, in F2F game will give me a report.
Whether good or bad experience, please let me know.
Enjoy,
Baron

[General 6 Stars]

What is the reason why your transport cost stays the same ? I was always a huge fan of lower naval cost. Have you played your 3rd option ( cost 6 ) yet ? Just seeing if it makes 1 country to strong in naval.

I like the sub A3. Like you said do I take as casualty or not. Depends on how much you want to counter. Definitely with wolfpacks.  I think planes should not hit subs unless theirs a destroyer present 1 : 1.

Do Germanys wolfpacks ( if playing rule ) get a A4 with 2 or more subs ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

What is the reason why your transport cost stays the same ? I was always a huge fan of lower naval cost.

It is too keep the balance between the OOB Defenseless cost and my Transport HRed which have some defensive capabilities but can be chosen at owner’s will instead of chosen last. It worth something in IPCs. (According to Combat AACalc, at OOB level, such TPs should cost 10 IPCs. So, in a way, TPs is also at a reduced cost.)

@SS:

I like the sub A3. Like you said do I take as casualty or not. Depends on how much you want to counter. Definitely with wolfpacks. I think planes should not hit subs unless theirs a destroyer present 1 : 1.

The whole idea is to get ride of this annoying complexifying rules and have better simplified interactions between Fg, Subs, DDs and TPs. If you keep it, then stay OOB.
There is no reason to change Sub combat value. Unless you find them too overpowering.

@SS:

Do Germanys wolfpacks ( if playing rule ) get a A4 with 2 or more subs ?

No. I find that A3 is already enough.
But I gave them more chances of survival with less blocking capacity from DD, especially on submerge.