Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator


    When creating this list I attempted to incorporate as many of the discussions as possible without making things either too weak or too strong.  Things I considered were:
    A)  The prices of the units being adapted by the technology.
    B)  What was Larry’s original rule for the technology?
    C)  Was Larry’s original rule working, or was it too weak (as was the case much of the time.)
    I then tried to combine technologies (as they were in the original vote with all the priveleges that were in the original vote) in such a way that the technologies could have enough power for a map of this scale.

    Keep in mind, in Classic your Bomber could get from England to Yakut SSR in one turn.  Now the same bomber (called a Strategic Bomber), flying the exact same path can only get to Vologda or Urals before running out of fuel.  About 60-70% of where it could in classic.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 1:  Improved Training and Technology

    This technology includes both Improved Mechanized Infantry and Advanced Artillery.  In my experience with these two technologies, in the current rendition of the game and previous renditions of the game (when applicable) these are of similar power and scope.  Both technologies enhance a ground unit and a ground unit’s attacking power.  Of all the possible permutations between the two technology charts, these two seem the most plausible combination.

    Why was the Mechanized Infantry being paired with an Artillery boosted from 2 to 3?  Partially to reward you for getting that artillery piece to the front lines and partialy because there is another technology below that allows you to bring artillery hitched to your mechanized units.  This would allow cheap reinforcements for your armored units (they still defend at 2, so no better defense than before) that nations like Russia, Japan, America, England and Germany can throw on the front lines.

    Advanced Artillery Technology was not changed at all.  This is Larry’s rule and I felt it was a good one as is.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 2:  Improved Aeronautics

    This technology includes both Jet Fighters and Long Ranged Aircraft.  Both of these two technologies are hard hitting aircraft upgrades - combining this just plain made sense.  Of course, HB could have been here, but that felt more like a technology to pair with another, mentioned later.

    Jet fighter technology causes your fighters to defend at a 5.  It did this before in Axis and Allies, I felt given the increase in finances, this would not cause a problem either.  It helps with fleet defense - which is important in the Pacific - and it basically helps with pushing the Russians back - important in Europe.  It also has the benefit of making Sea Lion just that little bit harder we all wanted without adding a single new unit to the board!  Attacking at 4 is Larry’s idea and I’m good with dropping it down to 3 given the increased defense.

    LRA has not changed.  +2 range to Fighters, Tactical Bombers and Strategic Bombers.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 3:  Improved Bomber Technology

    This technology includes the two technologies that only effects bombers!  Both Paratroopers and Heavy Bombers are in this category.

    Paratroopers were increased from 1 infantry to 2 infantry.  This makes sense because the board is so huge and there is so much money available, that this would boost would make the technology viable again.  The downside is that now you can use this to strike 1 infantry defending with more strength.  I think it’s worth the downside given that any country can get the technology with equal chance and that it effects everyone equally.

    Heavy Bombers has not changed.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 4: Improved Factories

    This technology revolves around the creation of new units, both in cost and ability.

    Improved Industrial Complexes had the one change of reducing the cost of Major Complexes from 30 IPC to 24 IPC.  In the grand scheme of things, exactly how often are nations building  major industrial nations? 
    1)  Japan in Korea
    2)  Germany in Romania or Norway
    3)  Any nation recovering from losing their capitol.
    The effect of this change is marginal, all the rest of the aspects of this technology came from Larry’s original rules.

    War Bonds is the one technology universally looked down upon as both the most ridiculous technology (“What, I need a scientist to tell me I could use money from my citizens to help finance the war?”) and weakest (“Wow, I spent 30 IPC on technology and I rolled a 1 for my warbonds.”)  Add to that the fact Strategic Bombers get a +2 on SBR and we have a technology that could use a boost.  Taking the best of 2 dice and adding 2 IPC makes the Warbond equivalent to a strategic bombing run but just a bit stronger (since you have 2 chances to roll a higher number instead of 1 like with the bomber.)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 5:  Improved Naval Bases

    This technology effectively includes both Super Submarines and Improved Shipyard, I just tossed the submarine’s upgrade to attacking at a 3 as it’s only upgrade with the technology.  5 IPC submarines when tanks cost 6 was ridiculous!  Call your congressman/representative and ask him if he thinks a fleet of submarines should cost the less as a division of tanks.  So I changed that - especially since with Super Submarines they attack just as well as a cruiser and you can buy 2 of them for the price of a cruiser (an under represented piece on the board, if you ask me.)

    In Larry’s original rule, ships just got cheaper.  Why?  I don’t know, I was not there!  What I do know is we’ve lamented for almost a month now that the ships in this game don’t have great improvements, just cheaper units.  Even Larry seems unhappy with this technology, he’s changed it a few times to lower the price more on the Cruiser without actually getting more cruisers (in my opinion.)

    • Battleships:  Given up to 3 AA Gun shots (per Alpha 3 AA Gun rules, which were voted into Delta already).  The cost was not changed, they still cost 20 IPC, they still attack at 4, they still defend at 4, they still take 2 hits to sink.  The only change is we added the AA Gun ability we’ve been talking about for weeks, but instead of just applying it from the get go, you have to get a technology (and thus, no round 1 moves are effected!  No Axis strategies are negatively impacted!)
    • Submarines:  Basically they are Super Submarines.  It’s been around forever, it will be around forever.  No need to change it, in my opinion.
    • Aircraft Carriers:  Well, for one, I think it’s a bit nuts that if a carrier is hit by a submarine (at the water line) it suddenly cannot recover planes on it’s undamaged flight deck.  But that’s how the core rules are, so we’re stuck with it.  We can, however, allow the improved version of Aircraft Carriers to recover fighters after defending itself. (Note, this only effects carriers on defense!  Attacking Carriers cannot recover fighters if they are damaged!)
    • Cruisers:  Reducing the cost to 9 IPC with this technology STILL was not getting enough cruisers on the board, at least that’s the response I got when I PMed Larry asking why he reduced the price yet again, to 9 IPC.  I understand you have to take my word for it, but that’s what I was told.  Anyway, increasing the speed to 3, on a unit that can be sunk by a submarine without returning fire, cannot block a submarine and cannot attack a submarine allows you to get these units up to the front faster, but little else.  It’s a good threat on enemy transports, since you have that little extra range even without a naval base.  I should clarify, naval bases basically don’t effect this unit anymore if you get the technology.  It moves 3 and a maximum of 3 with or without the base.  Even then, it’s pretty weak without a fleet around it, and the fleet around it can only move 2.
    • Destroyers:  Instead of finding some reason to reduce the price of our mainstay unit, why not give them the ability technology did in Revised?  Let them shore bombard as well…you are still limited to 1 shore bombardment per attacking ground unit, so a stack of 16 destroyers would need 8 loaded transports to each fire, and they only hit on a 2.  It seems a very plausible increase to the destroyer unit and far better than reducing it’s price which is already low enough to make this the flagship boat in any fleet.
    • Transports:  Again, instead of reducing the price on these necessary units, why not just allow them any two ground units?

    And now, all units in this category have an effect.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Technology 6:  Improved Airbases

    • Radar - no change.
    • Rockets - no change.
      Possible Additions:
    • Fighters cost 8 IPC
    • Tactical Bombers cost 10 IPC
    • Strategic Bombers cost 11 IPC

    Adding the change in cost would reflect the changes made in Naval Shipyards.  The thing is, fighters are so versatile, they effect the land, sea, economy and air of other nations, putting ALL their technologies in one chart (Rockets, Heavy Bombers, Long-Ranged Aircraft, Jet Fighters) has always been split up.  Ships have always been lumped together in one technology.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    A list of unchanged technologies:
    Advanced Artillery
    Long-Range Aircraft
    Heavy Bombers
    Super Submarines

    This has been a long string of posts (mainly because we have a maximum character per thread, partly to make it easier to read.)  This all starts on the previous page with the last agreed or mostly agreed upon rule quoted for easy reference.

  • @Cmdr:


    Research and Develop New Technologies Phase

    **A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols.  China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.

    The order of play is now:**

    • Purchase New Units and Technology Dice Rolls

    • Make all Combat Move Declarations

    • Conduct Combat

    • Perform all Non-Combat Movements

    • Place New Units

    • Determine Amount of Free Dice (by table located below)

    • Roll all Free and Purchased Technology Development Dice simultaniously and determine technologies developed

    • Collect Income

    **Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice.  Free dice are determined by how much money you collected at the end of your previous turn.  Income that counts towards this tally includes:  The sum of all territory values you control + the sum of all national objectives you eanred + up to 5 IPC saved from last round.

    Free dice are determined by the following chart:**

    • $10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll

    • $50 - 99 IPC = 2 Rolls

    • $100 - 149 IPC = 3 Rolls

    • $150 - 199 IPC = 4 Rolls

    • $200 - 249 IPC = 5 Rolls

    • $250 + IPC = 6 Rolls

    **Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $10 IPC per die, however.  A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.”  No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.

    The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**

    Research and Development Chart

    Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry.  Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.

    Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.

    Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.

    Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.)  Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).

    Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished.  Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.

    Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.

    Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC.  Standard placement restrictions apply.  Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers.  This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.

    _You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive.   _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

    • Improved Warships
      ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
      ** Submarines now attack at 3 or less.
      ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
      ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
      ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
      ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.
    1. Improved Airbases
    • Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
    • Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket.  Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.

    **Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again.  Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.

    Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice.  ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**

    The following are sanctioned optional rules.  These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!

    Players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.

    Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.

    Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.

    Excellent, my comments are in red.  I didn’t even look at the techs cause those are not as important as the R&D structure.

    EDIT*** Doh!  I left for work!  I do plan on leaving comments here hopefully tomorrow.  I have to run to the bank and do some other things first before going over it again.__

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    No, your comments are not in red!  You may have run afoul the “LIST” command (I did a lot, that’s why each blue line has it’s own start color and end color command.)

    For now, as I mentioned in the Delta thread, if you choose to test technologies, use the aforementioned rule that JimmyHat quoted, except, instead of using the technology descriptions use the following:

    TECH1:  Advanced Artillery + Improved Mechanized Infantry
    TECH2:  Jet Fighters + Long Range Aircraft
    TECH3:  Paratroopers + Heavy Bombers
    TECH4:  Improved Industrial Complexes + War Bonds
    TECH5:  Improved Shipyards + Super Submarines
    TECH6:  Radar + Rockets

    Technologies just like Larry’s rules without change.  The reduction to 6 and the combinations of which ones were already voted on.  It could change after we get testing back or have untested discussion, but at least it’s somewhere to start.    Note, IF YOU WANT TO TEST THEM, then you may.

    Report games and specific issues and counter strategies seen in the Delta thread (for now, I may move them to their own thread later.)  We’ll reconvene in a few weeks.

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