Real value of units

[Feddy the Frog]

Hey ItIsI,
I totally agree with you, BB were getting obsolete by the end of WW2, so making them around 22-23 would make more sense. Also, reducing the amount of money for a carrier to 15 might make them a slightly better buy. Especially in the smaller games, carriers (in our group) are almost never bought. Perhaps raising BB cost by one or two, and lowering the CV cost by one or two might make for more balanced naval buys. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks,

[Derek]

@Freddy:

Hey ItIsI,
I totally agree with you, BB were getting obsolete by the end of WW2, so making them around 22-23 would make more sense. Also, reducing the amount of money for a carrier to 15 might make them a slightly better buy. Especially in the smaller games, carriers (in our group) are almost never bought. Perhaps raising BB cost by one or two, and lowering the CV cost by one or two might make for more balanced naval buys. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks,

WOW at carriers never being bought!
Carriers are extremely powerful right now!

[Feddy the Frog]

Hey,
During some games, they just are too expensive. Especially in smaller games, in G40, they are probably ok, but with 1942, 1941, and others, they aren’t bought. Maybe once a game, but that’s it! Especially when are one hit carriers.

[Derek]

@Freddy:

Hey,
During some games, they just are too expensive. Especially in smaller games, in G40, they are probably ok, but with 1942, 1941, and others, they aren’t bought. Maybe once a game, but that’s it! Especially when are one hit carriers.

At 14 IPC
I think you are in the vast minority here
consider 34 IPC gets you a carrier and 2 fighters, the fighters can participate in amphib assaults, attack SZs 3 spaces away from the carrier, and the defense value is 10
for 32 IPC you can get 4 destroyers, defense value of 8. Cannot help in any land assaults and can only hit 2 spaces away

[ItIsILeClerc]

Tbh I have only played G40 so far (and, once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away, I played MB’s A&A 1942)…

But regarding Global, yes, Carriers are very effective for Naval Powers, especially the ones with lots of aircraft anyway.

Still I find the Carrier has not enough superiority but I can live with that since we 're playing a fun game. I do think however that Carriers should not be forced into even lesser superiority than already is the case by just lowering the cost of BBs and CA and leave the CV where it is…

To me, the proposal of Commander Jennifer seems to be the best I have seen so far. Except for the cheaper TRS, which makes me even more fearful of Sea Lion strategies and Japanese conquest of Sydney and the rest of the Pacific  :wink:.

[General 6 Stars]

IL, what was your values for a cruiser?  I can’t seem to find what you suggested.

[Derek]

Reducing CAs to 10 and BBs to 18 seems to work.
DDs are even to slightly favored still vs both, and SS still beat both on offense, but lose on defense (as they should)

could also go with MrRoboto’s SS idea:
Subs cost 8, A3D1
Raising cost to 8 and attack to 3, leaving defense alone

[ItIsILeClerc]

@SS:

IL, what was your values for a cruiser?  I can’t seem to find what you suggested.

Hi S,

I am fine with the cost of all units as they are now. Tho, if costs of naval Units would have to change I think those of cmdr. Jennifer make the most sense to me (except the lower cost for TRS).

I also like the idea of adding an ability to the cruiser, like for example an AAA or a combined arms one.
Or… maybe CA can grant DD the ability to hit a BB on a 1-on-1 basis. Things like that.

[Jennifer]

I might be persuaded to make the Aircraft Carrier a 12 IPC unit (on par with the cruiser in cost), give the cruiser AA Guns and leave the vaunted battleship at 20 or raise it to 22.  But if the carrier is going down that far in price, I’d strip the second hit ability from it and or reduce the defensive ability to 1.

I like the idea of the battleship as an anchor for the fleet.  Hard hitting, hard to sink.  Battleships were used in WWII and they were a nuisance to sink.  I am not saying the contributions were as important, but I am arguing that the game function is.

I’ve oft used “super battleships” as well that still att-4, def-4 but had 3 hits before they sunk (after second hit it att-0, def-1 until it was repaired) and raised the cost a bit (in this case probably 24 IPC for a super battleship limited to Japan, Germany and the United States for historical reasons, but I don’t see why it couldn’t be used for all nations.)

Oh, here’s an idea!  A technology that makes battleships 3 hit and aircraft carriers 2 hit!  Hmm…have to bring that one over to the enhanced discussion.

[Red Harvest]

This thread should also be in House Rules.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Red:

This thread should also be in House Rules.

I’ve asked a moderator to move it… Although you have helped me prove that the forum is littered with house rule threads that need to be moved, do you think you can dig deeper, because the last post in this thread is only a month old.

[Amon-Sul]

After many new games I have played and seen, I must say that there are definitely some units which are too expensive and/or overpowered.

Battleships and cruisers are so rarely bought that it is ridiculous.

Tacs, even tanks (except Germany mainly), and AA guns too to some measure.

I am pleading to the creators of the game to make those units more balanced for the next AA game, or the upgrade of this one.

Inf, art, mech, figs, boms and minor ICs are bought very often.

Major ICs should maybe be a little cheaper.

Harbours and airfields are more or less ok.

Cheers :)

[Imperious Leader]

Cruisers should be 11ipc, and get one special benefit: They move 3 spaces normally ( with or without naval port). Note that does not mean they can move 4 spaces with port.

Other idea is if they roll a one, a plane ( if any– must be removed)

Third option is they get one free AA roll at 1 ( built in floating AA defense)

[Amon-Sul]

They definitely need something. I like Ur ideas.

Bats should be able to kill a unit, without it being able to return fire.

tacs, aa guns and major ics need to be changed in either cost or possibilities. I am a fan of major to have a limit of 8 or 9 units but that it cost 25 IPC

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

After many new games I have played and seen, I must say that there are definitely some units which are too expensive and/or overpowered.

Battleships and cruisers are so rarely bought that it is ridiculous.

Tacs, even tanks (except Germany mainly), and AA guns too to some measure.

I am pleading to the creators of the game to make those units more balanced for the next AA game, or the upgrade of this one.

Inf, art, mech, figs, boms and minor ICs are bought very often.
Major ICs should maybe be a little cheaper.
Harbours and airfields are more or less ok.
Cheers :)

I believe you all the way.
This little flaws have generated a lot of creative thinking of various HRs however.
It is at least a real benefits.

I share the same hope than you.

I could say about Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA) unit (played on 1942.2) that even letting them work almost as a regular unit with a special first round defence, it didn’t make it much popular in the few games I played.
We can even use them on attack at the same value as an Infantry unit A1.

AAA A1D1M1C5
The first round of defense is either antiaircraft shot @1 at up to three planes (as OOB) or a regular D1 when their is no plane. The other rounds, AAA defends as a regular unit @1.

It is more attractive than OOB, but even then, none were bought during any play.
Only the starting units were used in combat.

Don’t know if it is only a matter of strategy. Or if it can get much popularity somehow.

Probably more useful and buy more often in G40 (since their is a lot more aircrafts), isn’t?

[Amon-Sul]

yes something should be changed.

why to have some units which are never bought?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Cruisers should be 11ipc, and get one special benefit: They move 3 spaces normally ( with or without naval port). Note that does not mean they can move 4 spaces with port.

Other idea is if they roll a one, a plane ( if any– must be removed)

Third option is they get one free AA roll at 1 ( built in floating AA defense)

You summarize almost all options, except the much aggressive 2 IPCs reduction to 10 IPCs.

I could say, for my part, that lowering to 11 IPCs and adding just this little 1 preemptive AA@1 on first round, it makes the difference for UK. Cruisers are a lot more appealing to defend transports against Germans Luftwaffe.

We also played it needing to be paired with Battleship or Carrier to get the special AA@1 benefit, combined with a 1 IPC redux, it is just enough to see them being bought every game.

[Amon-Sul]

1. i think that we should have a mid ic

5-6 units, 20 something IPC

2. i like the third air unit. i should just make it better and more diverse from fighter.

3.tanks are too expensive and cant match inf, art, mechs in buyings. if they would cost 5 they would be too strong. i suggest some slight improvement for them. i do not know what.

4. aa guns are too rarely bought.

5.bats should gain the ability to kill unit instantly and/or to be repaired at the end of the first allied turn. so if u have a uk bat it is fixed on anzac turn.

yes

acs, subs, destroyers, tras are bought often.

making the cruiser let s say the ability to shot air in some opening fire would be great, something like this. i would like to make it more diverse and air killer, designed for that purpose. it makes sense.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

yes something should be changed.

why to have some units which are never bought?

On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

---

Against planes it is just a little bit better:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

[Imperious Leader]

The truth is the cost should be 10.5, but we deal in round numbers and as such additional benefit should be considered if we go by 11 IPC.

To lower to 10 IPC would be terrible, SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10.