• OK then here are some figures:

    Ship Type  BB  CV  CA  DD  SS  AP  Fighter  T Bomber
    Germany  1      1  2  2  1     
    Italy  2      2  3  3  1     
    Japan  3  2  3  5  2  4     
    UK  4  2  4  8  2  6     
    USSR  1        1  1  1     
    France  2      2  3  3  1     
    Anzac                  1     
    USA  3  2  3  8  4  6     
    Spain            1      1     
    Argentina            1           
    Brazil                  1     
    Turkey                       
    Dutch              1

    BB  3
    CV  4
    CA 10
    DD 20
    SS  30

    what this chart means is take units by type and divide by 3,4,10,20, or 30


  • So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

    Fighter: 1:150
    Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
    Bomber: 1:600

    Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
    UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
    Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

    Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
    US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    Wow… I am impressed. I really like that you guys are doing all this but, do you have any sort of day job? This is a lot of work…


  • So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

    Fighter: 1:150
    Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
    Bomber: 1:600

    Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
    UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
    Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

    Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
    US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

    OK this is great… BUT you need to qualify some of the planes and ‘discount’ the numbers ( by type) of really inferior types like old WW1 biplanes that inflate the total and really saw no action or could not be classified at front line planes.

    I did this with some of the old battleships, rating Germany down a BB because of either pocket battleships ( which are really more like a cruiser) and old WW1 BB’s

    ON the Carriers some of the old small carriers were counted at 50% rate into my figures ( example: Hermes and Hosho)

    I think your numbers in view of this may be off by 1 plane here and there. PLease check.

    Today i will work on Land and lets compare notes.

    Once we know what each had in terms of total pieces we can begin to study the placement and plug in the numbers to build us a historical setup.


  • You could take a real map of the world and draw in the actual AAE/P40 borders and SZ’s.


  • @Imperious:

    So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

    Fighter: 1:150
    Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
    Bomber: 1:600

    Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
    UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
    Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

    Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
    US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

    OK this is great… BUT you need to qualify some of the planes and ‘discount’ the numbers ( by type) of really inferior types like old WW1 biplanes that inflate the total and really saw no action or could not be classified at front line planes.

    I did this with some of the old battleships, rating Germany down a BB because of either pocket battleships ( which are really more like a cruiser) and old WW1 BB’s

    ON the Carriers some of the old small carriers were counted at 50% rate into my figures ( example: Hermes and Hosho)

    I think your numbers in view of this may be off by 1 plane here and there. PLease check.

    Today i will work on Land and lets compare notes.

    Once we know what each had in terms of total pieces we can begin to study the placement and plug in the numbers to build us a historical setup.

    ok, so maybe the following changes:
    Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 1 Bomber  - Lets be serious- Germany shouldn’t have 2 bombers at start if we want some UK fleet to survive Round 1
    Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
    UK: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber  
    India: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac
    Italy: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac  - Reduce the Italian air arm significantly.  They weren’t well renowned anyway.
    France: 1 Fighter
    ANZAC: 2 Fighter
    US: 6 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber - Reduction based on war experience
    Russia: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber - Reduction based on quality/leadership

    Do those look better?


  • How will the land units be represented? Historically the Russian troops outnumbered the Germans, but had equipment spread out all over the front when Barbarossa began in 1941. The Germans were able to punch holes in the lines and creat massive encirclements of the Russian troops……that is tough to accomplish with the current game mechanics.

    Going purely off the numbers how will the axis even have a shot at victory?

    I understand that unit quality, troop experience etc. will need to be accounted for…but how can that be quantified?


  • They have a good shot.  BUT Germany and Italy need to be aggressive and coordinated at the outset in order to pull it off.  Italy can keep the UK busy in Africa, and Germany needs to do a balancing act by either throwing the Luftwaffe at UK and then all guns east or the reverse, hold Russia at bay and pull a fast Sea Lion.

    The thing that really worries me is UK’s split income.  The fact that 16+ IPCs have to go to India means that UK is weaker then she appears.  To me, the UK will need all her IPCs centered in Europe to survive till Russia and USA rev up.


  • How will the land units be represented?

    Historically the Russian troops outnumbered the Germans, but had equipment spread out all over the front when Barbarossa began in 1941. The Germans were able to punch holes in the lines and create massive encirclements of the Russian troops……that is tough to accomplish with the current game mechanics.

    Going purely off the numbers how will the axis even have a shot at victory?

    I understand that unit quality, troop experience etc. will need to be accounted for…but how can that be quantified?

    First job is to determine the proper ratios and force pools for a June 1940 setup.

    Step two is to determine where these units are located in June 1940

    Step Three is to address the qualitative factors that need to compensate the totals. This can be done by a number of ways:

    1. If Japan has too few planes you can address the quality of their better trained pilots, by for example making US fighters attack at 2 for the first 1-3 rounds they are at war. This might represent the skilled pilots. Or conversely i can make tokens for the starting Japanese tactical bombers/fighters and they get some special ability as long as they are not destroyed.

    2. Another example is to give Japan a first turn special attack as in AAP , where allied ships defend at 1 on the first turn they are attacked

    3. Another example is Japanese transports and or naval may get a double movement on the first turn they attack USA, So they can get a jump on all these little islands and model the lightening war of her first 6 months.

    4. Another example is a Russian winter rule, Bringing back oil centers, and other ideas.

    Step Four is to balance the final setup and provide as many different variations as possible so that the setup is not scripted and can have many options for players. Nothing worse than getting a game where you got the drop on that perfect move…. and the game is not replayed because new strategies are not possible.

    Step Five is to rigorously play-test this and provide feedback

    Step six is to then make a 1941 ( DEC) setup for a shorter game. The research on this is very good for both theaters of war.

  • TripleA

    @Imperious:

    OK then here are some figures:

    Ship Type   BB   CV   CA   DD   SS   AP   Fighter   T Bomber
    Germany   1      1   2   2   1     
    Italy   2      2   3   3   1     
    Japan   3   2   3   5   2   4     
    UK   4   2   4   8   2   6     
    USSR   1         1   1   1     
    France   2      2   3   3   1     
    Anzac                  1     
    USA   3   2   3   8   4   6     
    Spain            1      1     
    Argentina            1           
    Brazil                  1     
    Turkey                       
    Dutch               1

    BB  3
    CV  4
    CA 10
    DD 20
    SS  30

    what this chart means is take units by type and divide by 3,4,10,20, or 30

    hey il, you have made some mistakes with your historical repersentation of navies. actual fleet strength around May-June 1940 is below

    BB CV CA DD SS
    10 8 38 108 68 Japan
    15 7 37 118 112 USA
    16 6 70 214 78 Commonwealth
    8 0 18 70 25 France
    3 0 6 68    218 USSR
    4 0 13 26 240 Germany
    0 0 5 12   0    Netherlands
    6 0 22 59 146 Italy
    1 0 4 13 11 Turkey
    2 0 7   1 14 Spain
    2 0 2   7    0  Brazil
    2 0 4 30   0  Argentina

    now you can do any ratios you like to get to a board game amount. but you have errors in your real life fleets, one example that jumps out at me is your germany having 1 game CV (4 real life CV) when germany never had the single graf zepplin operational.

    i will use a chart that shows ratios of  BB 5/1,    CV 8/3,    CA 19/1,    DD 27/1,  SS 34/1
    these ratios are what larry used to convert japans real 1940 navy to pac40. i then spread it across the other powers.

    BB CV   CA   DD   SS
    2.00 3.00 2.00 4.00 2.00 Japan
    3.00 2.63 1.95 4.37 3.29 USA
    3.20 2.25 3.68 7.93 2.29 Commonwealth
    1.60 0.00 0.95 2.59 0.74 France
    0.60 0.00 0.32 2.52 6.41 USSR
    0.80 0.00 0.68 0.96 7.06 Germany
    0.00 0.00 0.26 0.44 0.00 Netherlands
    1.20 0.00 1.16 2.19 4.29 Italy
    0.20 0.00 0.21 0.48 0.32 Turkey
    0.40 0.00 0.37 0.78 0.41 Spain
    0.40 0.00 0.11 0.26 0.00 Brazil
    0.40 0.00 0.21 1.11 0.00 Argentina

    if i was to make a more historical accurate game setup i would round the navies to the following.

    BB CV CA DD SS
    2   3   2   4   2 Japan
    3   3   2   4   3 USA
    3   2   4   8   2 Commonwealth
    2   0   1   2   1 France
    1   0   0   3   6 USSR
    1   0   0   1   7 Germany
    0   0   0   1   0 Netherlands
    1   0   1   3   4 Italy
    0   0   1   0   0 Turkey
    0   0   1   1   0 Spain
    0   0   0   1   0 Brazil
    0   0   0   1   0 Argentina


  • Lets post further discussion in house rules. We already have a thread. I am re-posting that.

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