AAE40 setup ( now verified)

[Imperious Leader]

Yea you START with historical and then tweak with balancing the game. I know for a fact that adding 30 japanese planes could not have been any result from any historical starting point.

Rubbish. Pure Rubbish.

We will get the job done right 100%

I will start the study of the AAP40 map and have something in a week or so. From this starting point ( based entirely on historical) you guys address the balancing phase. First is to show it as it should be.

[San Chillos]

I’m with you guys. First let’s design a new setup for the global game using the original map. 1) It should be realistic. 2) It should be at least “somewhat historically accurate”. 3) Scale should not be too much unbalanced knowing that 100% scale balance is not possible. 4) Army strengths in the setup should not only represent numbers but also quality, terrain, leadership and even opportunism. 5) It should be balanced (this is the hardest part I guess…) 6) Finally, it should be fun.

Rock on!

[Imperious Leader]

Spain has 6 infantry and Turkey has 8.

So Spain would be harder to capture, but not impossible.

I have already formed the information on land sea air OOB for June 1940. I will post just what the facts say in terms of totals, then we can decide placement etc…

[gamerman01]

@Imperious:

Spain has 6 infantry and Turkey has 8.

So Spain would be harder to capture, but not impossible.

I have already formed the information on land sea air OOB for June 1940. I will post just what the facts say in terms of totals, then we can decide placement etc…

Haha - sweet.  We’re working on improving on the game weeks before it’s released.  :-D

We’re waiting right here for your next post, IL.  Will be interesting to see historical numbers next to OOB setup….

I know the Germans destroyed like half of Russia’s airforce on the first offensive, because they were grounded and not expecting German attack.  IIRC Russia had the largest army in the world before the German attack, and had a tremendous number of aircraft…

Anyway - can’t wait to see some stats.  Might start working on obtaining them myself…

[Imperious Leader]

OK then here are some figures:

Ship Type BB CV CA DD SS AP Fighter T Bomber
Germany 1 1 2 2 1
Italy 2 2 3 3 1
Japan 3 2 3 5 2 4
UK 4 2 4 8 2 6
USSR 1 1 1 1
France 2 2 3 3 1
Anzac 1
USA 3 2 3 8 4 6
Spain 1 1
Argentina 1
Brazil 1
Turkey
Dutch 1

BB  3
CV  4
CA 10
DD 20
SS  30
AP
FIGHTER
T BOMBER
BOMBER

http://www.members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-soam.html
http://ww2f.com/north-africa-mediterranean/27491-turkey-ww2.html
http://members.tripod.com/marcin_w/index-2.html
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Great-Britain/British-and-Empire-Armies-September-1939.htm

by the end of 1940 Bulgaria had around 300 combat aircraft,
In spring of 1941, the mobilized Bulgarian armed forces consisted of 16 infantry divisions, two cavalry divisions, one motorized brigade, seven air regiments

Organisation: In May 1940, the French Army on the north-east front, which stretched from Switzerland to the North Sea, was divided into the 1st and 2nd Army Groups and the 7th Army.
These forces comprised:
• 63 infantry divisions (of which 30 were regular) ;
• 7 motorised infantry divisions;
• 3 armoured divisions;
• 3 light mechanised divisions;
• 5 cavalry divisions;
• 13 fortress divisions.
• The general reserve comprised a further 17 infantry, 2 motorised and 3 armoured divisions.
French Air Force
The Air Force had suffered considerable neglect between the wars, and its performance in 1940, with machines which were in general much inferior to those of the enemy, was not impressive. Indeed, according to French sources, only 420 modern fighters and 31 heavy bombers were serviceable when the Germans struck in May.
Total French front line strength on 10 May 1940 was 1,604 aircraft (764 fighters, 260 bombers, 180 reconaissance planes, 400 liaison aircrafts).
Total strenght of the French Air Force together with Aviation Colonaile: 1,200 fighters, 800 reconaissance planes, 1,300 bombers.
Equipment of Luftwaffe First Line Units on September 1, 1939
Aircraft Strength
He111 bombers
780
Do17 bombers
470
Do17 reconaissance 280
Ju88 bombers
20
Ju87 dive-bombers
335
Bf109D fighters
235
Bf109E fighters
850
Bf110 destroyers
195
Ar66 fighters 5
Ar68 fighters 35
Hs126 tactical reconaissance 195
He46 tactical reconaissance 100
Coastal aircrafts 205
Miscellaneous 65
Total 3,960

Approximate organisation strength of the major types of the German Army divisions in 1939:
Infantry Division motorised Infantry Division Mountain Division Panzer Division Light Division
Units total 87 4 3 5 4
Officers 500 500 ? 400 400
Officials 100 100 ? 100 100
NCOs 2,500 2,500 ? 2,000 1,600
Privates 13,400 13,400 ? 9,300 8,700
Total men 16,500
(35 divisions from first wave 18,000) 16,500 ? 11,800 10,800
Infantry Regiments 3 with 3,000 men each 3 with 3,000 men each 2 with 3,000 men each 2 with 3,000 men each 1 or 2 with 2,000 or 3,000 men each
Machine guns MG34
500 500 220 220 460
Mortars 140
(54 x 8.1cm, others 5cm) 140
(54 x 8.1cm, others 5cm) 90 50 60
Infantry guns 25
(6 x 15cm, others 7.5cm) 25
(6 x 15cm, others 7.5cm) 14
(2 x 15cm, 12 x 7.5cm) 10 10
AT Pak 3,7 cm
75 75 48
(6 x 4.7cm) 50 50
Howitzers and guns 48
(12 x 15cm, others 10.5cm leFH)
48
(12 x 15cm, others 10.5cm leFH)
32
(16 x 7.5cm, 8 x 10.5cm leFH, 8 x 15cm) 28 24
(10.5cm leFH)

AA Flak 2 cm
12 12 12 12 12
Armored Cars 3 30 - 100 100
Tanks - - - 324 86
Trucks 500 1,700 - 1,400 1,400
Cars 400 1,000 - 560 600
Motorcycles 500 1,300 - 1,300 1,100
Sidecars 200 600 - 700 600
Horses 5,000 - ? - -
Horse-drawn carriages 1,000

Basic British Army units:
Infantry Division (motorised) Armoured Division
Total units 25 1
Infantry brigades 3 with 2,340 men and 99 officers each 2 battalions with 1,560 men and 66 officers together
Total men 13,600 ?
Artillery 36 x 18 pounders, 36 x 4.5inch Howitzers or 18/25 pounders ?
Anti-tank guns 75
(2 pounders or 25mm) ?
Tanks 28 light tanks, 44 Universal Bren carriers 104 cruiser tanks, 20 scout cars

British Forces total:
897,000 men, 26 divisions, 1,146 tanks, about 2,600 guns
1,911 planes (747 fighters, 871 bombers)
15 capital ships, 6 aircraft carriers, 61 cruisers, 181 destroyers, 59 submarines

The peacetime strength of the Japanese army was 17 divisions.
By 1940 it had 2 divisions in Japan and Korea, 12 in Manchuria and 27 in China (total 41 divisions).
Even in 1943 the commitment in China still amounted to 25 infantry divisions, 1 armoured division, 11 mixed brigades, 1 cavalry brigade and 1 flying division - a total of 620,000 men and 14,000 vehicles. This force, known as the Kwantung Army, was called upon to provide a constant stream of reinforcements for the Pacific War, and by 1945 its units were understrength and too weak to pose any real threat.
The Manchurian Army proper in 1939 had a strength of some 75,000 men in infantry and cavalry units.
Basic Japanese fighting units:
Infantry Division Armoured Division Army Amphibious Brigade Navy Naval Landing Force
Total units 40 1 ? ?
Infantry regiments 3
(aprox. 2,500 officers and men each) 1 brigade
(3,800 officers and men) 3 battalions with 3,200 officers and men 2,000 officers and men
Cavalry regiments 1
(950 officers and men) - - -

[Imperious Leader]

Cavalry regiments 1
(950 officers and men) - - -
Total men ? 10,500 4,000 aprox. 3,500
Machine guns 120
(only in MG companies) ? ? ?
Howitzers and Fieldguns 66
(48 x 75mm, 18 x 70mm + independent field artillery companies) 12
(8 x 105mm, 4 x 155mm) ? 8
(4 x 3inch, 2 x 75mm, 2 x 70mm)
Anti-tank guns 18
(37mm) 18
(47mm) ? ?
Anti-aircraft guns ? 20
(4 x 75mm, 16 x 20mm) ? ?
Tanks 10-17
(tankettes) 270 - -
Vehicles aprox. 300 1,580

Army Air Force:
There was no independent Japanese air force. The Army and the Navy each had their own air service. Each was nominally controlled by the Emperor. Actual control was vested in the General Staff, the Army and Navy Ministries and the Inspector General of Aviation.
The function of the Japanese Army Air Service was to provide support for the ground troops and to conduct counter-air force operations. It was not expected to initiate strategic operations on its own behalf, as was the case with the RAF for instance.
The Air Service was relatively small at the outbreak of war and Japan’s highly-trained pilots were soon casualties. Their replacements lacked the necessary flying ability to take on the growing technical and numerical superiority of the Americans. Partly as a response to this shortage kamikaze aircraft were introduced. The kamikaze aircraft was simply an aimed bomb in which the pilot sat over an explosive charge and aimed the aircraft at the target. First used at Leyte Gulf, these planes caused some consternation to the American forces; but overall their effect was negligible to the final outcome of the conflict.
The Japanese Army Air Service was organised into five air armies with clear areas of operations. Coordination was achieved between the Army and the Air Service by placing the air forces in each theatre under the command of the theatre commander. The largest Japanese tactical organisation was the air division, two or more of which would form an air army. Beneath this was the air brigade; two air brigades formed an air division. The composition of the brigade was flexible. Its HQ was small and concerned primarily with tactical planning. It was usually composed of three or four air regiments; each regiment was equipped with the same type of aircraft (fighters, or light or medium bombers) divided into three or four companies. The company was the most important operational unit; it was normally of nine aircraft, divided into three sections, each of three aircraft.
The total strength of the Japanese Army Air Service in 1940 was 36 fighter (324 planes), 28 light (252 planes) and 22 medium bomber (198 planes) and 29 reconnaissance companies (261 planes), with a personnel total of 33,000 officers and men.

Naval Air Force:
Apart from 370 training and reserve machines, the Japanese Naval Air Force totalled aprox. 1,400 aircraft. There were 660 fighters, 330 carrier-borne strike aircraft, 240 twin-engined shore-based torpedo-bombers specifically intended for fleet cooperation, and 520 flying boats and seaplanes.
All these aircraft were organised in the Combined Air Fleet, based at Kanoya, and were subduvided into the 1st Air Fleet (the Carrier Fleet) and the 11th Air Fleet (under Vice-Admiral Nishizo Tsukuhura) shore-based in Formosa and Indo-China. The fleets were further divided into air flotillas (each commanded by a rear-admiral), which where themselves composed of two or more air groups. Each air group comprised a base unit and 12 to 36 aircraft with 4 to 12 in reserve, depending on size. The combat formation was the air division of about nine aeroplanes.
During 1939-40, the Soviet armed forces were undergoing a period of transition. New weapons and tactical ideas were being developed, but misguided and often stultifying central control meant that there was little sense of initiative or responsibility, and important advances in any sphere were often left in isolation. The excellent progress made in tank construction, for instance, was counterbalanced by the absence of an effective radio-communication system, without which tanks were severely restricted.
The Soviet Union placed great reliance on cavalry because of vast distances, poor road and rail communications and the inability of Soviet industry to provide vehicles for all of such a huge army.
The Soviet Union was divided into 13 military districts and 2 military commissariats.
The Army was essentially a standing army which was run by professional cadre, but it relied on conscription for the mass of its personnel. Men were liable for military service for a period of 22 years from the age of 20 to 41.
The peacetime strength of the army was estimated at 1,800,000 men, while mobilised strength could be as high as 11,000,000.
The baleful influence of Stalin over the Soviet armed forces during the 1930s culminated in the purges of 1938 which decimated the officer corps. Almost inevitably, the most able and outspoken officers were destroyed by the purges and this was a significant factor in the poor performance of the Red Army in the Winter War against Finland in 1939. It has been estimated that Soviet casualties were about 200,000 men during this short campaign.
Basic Red Army units:
Rifle Division Cavalry Division Heavy Tank Brigade Light Tank Brigade
Total units 110
(including 23 Territorial divisions) 44 4 21
Infantry regiments 3 with 2,900 officers and men each 2 motorised rifle battalions
(total approx. 1,900 officers and men) 2,745 officers and men 2,745 officers and men
Cavalry
regiments - 4 - -
Total men 19,000 ? ? ?
Machine guns 417
(174 heavy 7.62mm Maxim, 243 light 7.62mm Degtyares) ? ? ?
Mortars 100+
(50 to 120mm) ? ? ?
Howitzers and Fieldguns 100
(12 x 152mm, 28 x 122mm, 42 x 76mm, 18 infantry guns) approx. 50
(76mm) 46 guns, self-propelled or moved by tractors 46 guns, self-propelled or moved by tractors
Anti-tank guns 72
(45mm) ? ? ?
Tanks 22 T-26, 16 T-37
64
(BT or armoured cars) 136 T-28 (one Brigade with 2/3 T-35s), 37 BT, 10 flame-thrower tanks 278 BT or 267 T-26
Lorries and tractors ? ? 521 521

Red Air Force
Throughout the 1920’s and 1930’s the Soviet Government made enormous efforts to build up a large modern air force, but the difficulties in finding suitable designs and the machines and materials to mass produce aircraft were enormous.
To overcome the lack of pilots and mechanics the government poured money into the voluntary organisation Osoaviakhim (Society for the Support of Defence, Aviation and Chemical Defence). Soon after its formation in 1927 it had a membership of three million which had grown to 13 million by 1936. Aero clubs were set up to provide pilots, mechanics and parachutists, and until 1940 all Red Air Force volunteers came from this source. Shortages of instructors, training aids and aircraft meant that the standard attained was very low, however, and it was finally decided to select Air Force recruits from the annual military draft.
Between 1935 and 1937, 3,576 aircraft, including a large proportion of four-engined bombers, were produced, but as the numbers increased so effectiveness decreased because the technical standard of the aircraft industry was falling behind developments in more advanced industrial nations.
The Red Air Force had its first practical experience in the Spanish Civil War and this resulted in certain organisational and operational changes, but it was the traumatic experience of the Winter War against Finland (in which some 1,000 Soviet aircraft were lost) that really showed up the alarming shortcomings in training, tactics and equipment. Red Air Force commanders were not ignorant of these defects but the purges of 1937-1938, which removed many senior commanders, meant that the remedies undertaken were not necessarily the most effective.
The Air Force of the Red Army (VVS-RKKA) was divided into two basic components. The first was the Air Force of the Red Army which consisted of fighter and ground attack regiments under the direct control of a Military District (later Front). The second component was the Long-Range Bomber Force which was at the disposal of the State Commissariat of Defence for tactical deployment on any front when necessary.
In April 1939 a thorough re-organisation within the Air Force took place. The largest formation was now the air division, which comprised between four and six air regiments (formerly brigades). Each regiment consisted of about 60 aircraft with additional reserve planes (usually about 40 aircraft).
There were three types of Air Regiment:
bomber regiments with four squadrons of 12 aircraft each;
fighter regiments with four squadrons of 15 aircraft each;
ground attack regiments with four squadrons of 15 aircraft each.
The squadron was divided into wings of three aircraft.
The Air Force attached to a Military District or Front included a number of fighter and bomber regiments, while mixed regiments with both bomber and fighter components were attached to army corps, which also retained their own reconnaissance squadrons.
important aircraft types in 1939 number of planes
Beriev MBR-2 flying boat approx. 1,500 built 1933-42
Illyushin II-4 bomber 1,528 built 1937-39
Polikarpov I-15 fighter
approx. 1,000+
Polikarpov I-16 fighter approx. 5,000
Tupolev SB-2 bomber approx. 6,000 built 1936-1941
Tupolev TB-3 heavy bomber 800 built 1931-1939

[Imperious Leader]

Total Finnish Forces at the Winter War:
400,000 men, 9 divisions
145 planes
2 coast defence ships, 5 submarines

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Fleets-September-1939.htm

By May 1940, the number of divisions in the German army was as follows:
• 129 infantry divisions;
• 8 motorised infantry divisions (3 Waffen-SS);
• 10 panzer divisions;
• 3 mountain divisions;
• 1 cavalry division;
• 2 airborne divisions;
In addition the SS-Verfuegungstruppe (from April 1940, known as the Waffen-SS) provided three motorised infantry divisions and a brigade. There were now over two-and-a-half million men under arms in the German Army, of which the Waffen-SS contributed about 100,000.
For the invasion of France the German Army was organised into three army groups:
Army Group A (von Rundstedt) with 45 1/2 divisions including 7 panzer;
Army Group B (von Bock) with 29 1/2 divisions including 3 panzer, and
Army Group C (von Leeb) with 19 divisions.
Army Group C held a defensive position against the Maginot Line while the main offensive was launched by Rundstedt’s Army Group A in the Ardennes with a subsidiary invasion of Holland and Belgium undertaken by Army Group B.
From 9 April (when German troops invaded Denmark and Norway) to the armistice with France on 25 June, the German Army confirmed the superiority of its organisation and tactics. Losses in Norway were 5636 men; the invasion of France and the Low Countries cost 27,074 killed, 111,034 wounded and 18,348 missing. On some single days in World War I the losses were higher.
German Air Force (Luftwaffe) and Airborne Forces:
For the campaign in the West the Luftwaffe deployed 3,902 aircraft (1,482 bombers and dive-bombers, 42 ground-attack planes, 1,016 fighter planes and 248 Bf110 twin-engined fighters).
Colonel-General Kesselring commanded Luftflotte 2 with I, IV and IX Fliegerkorps in support of General von Bock’s Army Group B.
Colonel-General Sperrle commanded Luftflotte 3 with II, V and VIII Fliegerkorps in support of General von Rundstedt’s Army Group A.

The forces within the Territorial Air Zones based in Italy were organised as follows:
• Northern Zone: 7 wings of bombers (approx. 315 planes) and 3 wings (plus one group) of CR-42 fighters (approx. 210 planes);
• Central Zone: three wings of bombers (approx. 135 planes) and two wings and a group of fighter planes (approx. 150 planes);
• Southern Zone: five bomber wings (approx. 225 planes) and one fighter wing as well as an autonomous fighter group (approx. 90 planes) and divebomber group (approx. 25 planes);
• South-Eastern Zone: one wing of night-bombers (approx. 45 planes) and float-planes and a group of obsolescent CR-32 fighters (approx. 30 planes).
• the largest of the overseas commands was that based in Libya and comprised four bomber wings (approx. 180 planes) ; a fighter wing and three other fighter groups (approx. 150 planes) ; and two groups plus two squadrons of colonial reconnaissance aircraft (approx. 60 planes).
The Italian Air Force begun the war with nearly 2,000 operational aircraft ready for combat and with almost the same number in reserve.
Italian Navy (Regia Navale)
Mussolini hoped that the Regia Navale would play an important part in any Mediterranean war. He saw control of the sea (Mare Nostrum - Our Sea - was how he described the Mediterranean) as an essential prerequisite for expanding his empire into Nice, Corsica, Tunis and the Balkans.
Picture: a heavy cruiser of the Zara class is firing the guns.
Italian naval building accelerated during his tenure of power, and by June 1940, the Navy comprised:
• 4 battleships;
• 8 heavy cruisers;
• 14 light cruisers;
• 128 destroyers;
• 115 submarines;
• 62 motor-torpedo boats.
There were 1,235 Italian merchant ships, totalling 3,448,453 tons.
The Navy lacked aircraft, and was dependent on the Air Force for protection and reconnaissance. This was an unsatisfactory state of affairs; co-operation was poor, and although the torpedo-bombers and reconnaissance aircraft of the Regia Aeronautica were effective, high-level bombers did not have much success against ships at sea.

Basic US Army units in 1942:
Infantry Division (motorised) Armoured Division Tank Battalion Tank Destroyer Battalion
Total units (in summer 1942) aprox. 28
(42 in December 1942 including armoured) aprox. 5
(16 in 1944-45) 2 +
(65 in 1944-45, often being combined in groups of 3-5, sometimes with mechanized infantry units) 3 +
(80 in 1945)
Infantry regiments 3
(each with three battailons, each with 860 men) 1
(with three battailons, each with 860 men, all mounted on half-tracks) - -
Total men 14,253 10,900 729 1,250
Machine guns 280
(147 x .30, 133 x .50) aprox. 93
(49 x .30, 44 x .50) - -
Mortars 138
(81 x 60mm, 57 x 81mm) 46
(27 x 60mm, 19 x 81mm) - -
Artillery 48
(36 x US 105mm Howitzer, 12 x US 155mm Howitzer)

---

Self-propelled howitzers 24
(18 x 75mm, 6 x 105mm) 54
(105mm) - -
Anti-tank guns 109
(37mm M3A1 , later 57mm) ? - -
Anti-aircraft guns anti-aircraft battalions were controlled by the Army
Vehicles 1,440
(note: this capacity was not enough to move all equipment and personnel simultaneously) 1,000+ - -
Armoured Cars - 68
(M8) - -
Tanks - 227
(159 medium M3 Lee or M4 Sherman, 68 Stuart)
68
(51 medium M3 Lee or M4 Sherman, 17 Stuart)
36
(M10)

US Army Air Force
In the 1930s there were dramatic strides in civil and commercial aviation, and by the eve of the war the United States was the world leader in civil aviation. Army aviation lagged sadly behind. Its aircraft were not capable of meeting the demands of the war to come, and production was quite limited in comparison with the industry’s potential. In 1938 only 1,800 military aircraft were built, and 2,195 in the following year. But in 1939, when the 1935 Neutrality Act was repealed, the American aircraft industry began to recover. (The Act had put an embargo on the export of all military material to belligerent countries, with the aim of keeping America out of war.) France and Britain were major new customers for American aircraft, and the 1941 Lend-Lease Act gave this production a new boost.
In 1939 the USAAC had a total of 2,400 aircraft, while the U.S. Navy Air Force had 2,500 aircraft, 600 of which were carrier-based.
When war broke out the Army had 3,305 aircraft in a state of readiness, while the Navy had about 3,000 aircraft ready.
Basic British and Empire Army units in August 1940:
Infantry Division (motorised) Armoured Division
Total units approx. 29 - 33 3
Infantry brigades 3 with 2,340 men and 99 officers each 2 battalions with 1,560 men and 66 officers together
Total men 13,600 ?
Artillery 72
(36 x 18 pounders, 36 x 4.5inch Howitzers or 18/25 pounders or 25 pounders) approx. 48
(25 pounders)
Anti-tank guns 75
(2 pounders or 25mm) approx. 48
(2 pounders)
Tanks 28 light tanks, 44 Universal Bren carriers 220 cruiser tanks

Total British and Empire divisions in France on 10 May 1940: 10
Total British and Empire divisions in Great Britain in August 1940: 26 (2 armoured), all short of equipment.

[Imperious Leader]

OK then here are some figures:

Ship Type  BB  CV  CA  DD  SS  AP  Fighter  T Bomber
Germany  1      1  2  2  1     
Italy  2      2  3  3  1     
Japan  3  2  3  5  2  4     
UK  4  2  4  8  2  6     
USSR  1        1  1  1     
France  2      2  3  3  1     
Anzac                  1     
USA  3  2  3  8  4  6     
Spain            1      1     
Argentina            1           
Brazil                  1     
Turkey                       
Dutch              1

BB  3
CV  4
CA 10
DD 20
SS  30

what this chart means is take units by type and divide by 3,4,10,20, or 30

[BJCard]

So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

Fighter: 1:150
Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
Bomber: 1:600

Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

[LHoffman]

Wow… I am impressed. I really like that you guys are doing all this but, do you have any sort of day job? This is a lot of work…

[Imperious Leader]

So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

Fighter: 1:150
Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
Bomber: 1:600

Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

OK this is great… BUT you need to qualify some of the planes and ‘discount’ the numbers ( by type) of really inferior types like old WW1 biplanes that inflate the total and really saw no action or could not be classified at front line planes.

I did this with some of the old battleships, rating Germany down a BB because of either pocket battleships ( which are really more like a cruiser) and old WW1 BB’s

ON the Carriers some of the old small carriers were counted at 50% rate into my figures ( example: Hermes and Hosho)

I think your numbers in view of this may be off by 1 plane here and there. PLease check.

Today i will work on Land and lets compare notes.

Once we know what each had in terms of total pieces we can begin to study the placement and plug in the numbers to build us a historical setup.

[miamibeach]

You could take a real map of the world and draw in the actual AAE/P40 borders and SZ’s.

[BJCard]

@Imperious:

So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

Fighter: 1:150
Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
Bomber: 1:600

Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

OK this is great… BUT you need to qualify some of the planes and ‘discount’ the numbers ( by type) of really inferior types like old WW1 biplanes that inflate the total and really saw no action or could not be classified at front line planes.

I did this with some of the old battleships, rating Germany down a BB because of either pocket battleships ( which are really more like a cruiser) and old WW1 BB’s

ON the Carriers some of the old small carriers were counted at 50% rate into my figures ( example: Hermes and Hosho)

I think your numbers in view of this may be off by 1 plane here and there. PLease check.

Today i will work on Land and lets compare notes.

Once we know what each had in terms of total pieces we can begin to study the placement and plug in the numbers to build us a historical setup.

ok, so maybe the following changes:
Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 1 Bomber  - Lets be serious- Germany shouldn’t have 2 bombers at start if we want some UK fleet to survive Round 1
Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
UK: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber  
India: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac
Italy: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac  - Reduce the Italian air arm significantly.  They weren’t well renowned anyway.
France: 1 Fighter
ANZAC: 2 Fighter
US: 6 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber - Reduction based on war experience
Russia: 2 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber - Reduction based on quality/leadership

Do those look better?

[Stockus13]

How will the land units be represented? Historically the Russian troops outnumbered the Germans, but had equipment spread out all over the front when Barbarossa began in 1941. The Germans were able to punch holes in the lines and creat massive encirclements of the Russian troops……that is tough to accomplish with the current game mechanics.

Going purely off the numbers how will the axis even have a shot at victory?

I understand that unit quality, troop experience etc. will need to be accounted for…but how can that be quantified?

[ll Duce]

They have a good shot.  BUT Germany and Italy need to be aggressive and coordinated at the outset in order to pull it off.  Italy can keep the UK busy in Africa, and Germany needs to do a balancing act by either throwing the Luftwaffe at UK and then all guns east or the reverse, hold Russia at bay and pull a fast Sea Lion.

The thing that really worries me is UK’s split income.  The fact that 16+ IPCs have to go to India means that UK is weaker then she appears.  To me, the UK will need all her IPCs centered in Europe to survive till Russia and USA rev up.

[Imperious Leader]

How will the land units be represented?

Historically the Russian troops outnumbered the Germans, but had equipment spread out all over the front when Barbarossa began in 1941. The Germans were able to punch holes in the lines and create massive encirclements of the Russian troops……that is tough to accomplish with the current game mechanics.

Going purely off the numbers how will the axis even have a shot at victory?

I understand that unit quality, troop experience etc. will need to be accounted for…but how can that be quantified?

First job is to determine the proper ratios and force pools for a June 1940 setup.

Step two is to determine where these units are located in June 1940

Step Three is to address the qualitative factors that need to compensate the totals. This can be done by a number of ways:

1. If Japan has too few planes you can address the quality of their better trained pilots, by for example making US fighters attack at 2 for the first 1-3 rounds they are at war. This might represent the skilled pilots. Or conversely i can make tokens for the starting Japanese tactical bombers/fighters and they get some special ability as long as they are not destroyed.

2. Another example is to give Japan a first turn special attack as in AAP , where allied ships defend at 1 on the first turn they are attacked

3. Another example is Japanese transports and or naval may get a double movement on the first turn they attack USA, So they can get a jump on all these little islands and model the lightening war of her first 6 months.

4. Another example is a Russian winter rule, Bringing back oil centers, and other ideas.

Step Four is to balance the final setup and provide as many different variations as possible so that the setup is not scripted and can have many options for players. Nothing worse than getting a game where you got the drop on that perfect move…. and the game is not replayed because new strategies are not possible.

Step Five is to rigorously play-test this and provide feedback

Step six is to then make a 1941 ( DEC) setup for a shorter game. The research on this is very good for both theaters of war.

[allweneedislove]

@Imperious:

OK then here are some figures:

Ship Type   BB   CV   CA   DD   SS   AP   Fighter   T Bomber
Germany   1      1   2   2   1     
Italy   2      2   3   3   1     
Japan   3   2   3   5   2   4     
UK   4   2   4   8   2   6     
USSR   1         1   1   1     
France   2      2   3   3   1     
Anzac                  1     
USA   3   2   3   8   4   6     
Spain            1      1     
Argentina            1           
Brazil                  1     
Turkey                       
Dutch               1

BB  3
CV  4
CA 10
DD 20
SS  30

what this chart means is take units by type and divide by 3,4,10,20, or 30

hey il, you have made some mistakes with your historical repersentation of navies. actual fleet strength around May-June 1940 is below

BB CV CA DD SS
10 8 38 108 68 Japan
15 7 37 118 112 USA
16 6 70 214 78 Commonwealth
8 0 18 70 25 France
3 0 6 68    218 USSR
4 0 13 26 240 Germany
0 0 5 12   0    Netherlands
6 0 22 59 146 Italy
1 0 4 13 11 Turkey
2 0 7   1 14 Spain
2 0 2   7    0  Brazil
2 0 4 30   0  Argentina

now you can do any ratios you like to get to a board game amount. but you have errors in your real life fleets, one example that jumps out at me is your germany having 1 game CV (4 real life CV) when germany never had the single graf zepplin operational.

i will use a chart that shows ratios of  BB 5/1,    CV 8/3,    CA 19/1,    DD 27/1,  SS 34/1
these ratios are what larry used to convert japans real 1940 navy to pac40. i then spread it across the other powers.

BB CV   CA   DD   SS
2.00 3.00 2.00 4.00 2.00 Japan
3.00 2.63 1.95 4.37 3.29 USA
3.20 2.25 3.68 7.93 2.29 Commonwealth
1.60 0.00 0.95 2.59 0.74 France
0.60 0.00 0.32 2.52 6.41 USSR
0.80 0.00 0.68 0.96 7.06 Germany
0.00 0.00 0.26 0.44 0.00 Netherlands
1.20 0.00 1.16 2.19 4.29 Italy
0.20 0.00 0.21 0.48 0.32 Turkey
0.40 0.00 0.37 0.78 0.41 Spain
0.40 0.00 0.11 0.26 0.00 Brazil
0.40 0.00 0.21 1.11 0.00 Argentina

if i was to make a more historical accurate game setup i would round the navies to the following.

BB CV CA DD SS
2   3   2   4   2 Japan
3   3   2   4   3 USA
3   2   4   8   2 Commonwealth
2   0   1   2   1 France
1   0   0   3   6 USSR
1   0   0   1   7 Germany
0   0   0   1   0 Netherlands
1   0   1   3   4 Italy
0   0   1   0   0 Turkey
0   0   1   1   0 Spain
0   0   0   1   0 Brazil
0   0   0   1   0 Argentina

[Imperious Leader]

Lets post further discussion in house rules. We already have a thread. I am re-posting that.