How to handle china supported by russia



  • Hi Fellow Global 1940 players,

    I play regularly as both axis and allies and up until the last few games the axis had the odds.
    In the latest few games Russia send a few (sometimes more, sometimes less) units to china.
    2 mechs and tanks you start with supported by fighters sometimes with 2 extra mechs bought round 1.
    This really hurts japan, and if done right does not weaken Russia much - since the units can be pulled back when Germany gets close to Moscow. The threat off having them in china alone can slow down japans china crush severely, especially combined with units from india.
    I’ve read some threads addressing this but would still like to know what you guys think is the best counter to this tactic.



  • The best counter to this for Japan would be to simply ignore going into China and hold on to your Chinese cities and go for India since China can’t support them in the long run.

    However, I have yet to encounter a Soviet player who willing does this mostly because they are more concerned about the coming war with Germany.



  • In my experience not getting china under control is fatal for japan.
    I have trouble seeing how japan gets india if china is not under control.



  • As Japan I usually want China out of the war and one of the Allied Fleets destroyed before the first US turn offensive turn.

    Knocking India out of the War before mopping up China is risky, but I may play this out. It’s an interesting tactic.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    The best counter for this is for Germany to take advantage, and strike Russia G2.

    If Russia has pulled those 3-4 units from the front to go into China, they won’t have enough to delay the Germans schedule advance.

    Whilst I am all for getting some Russians into China if possible, I don’t find that the Russian force can do enough damage to Japan before J3 to outweigh the fact it’s missing on the German/Russian front.

    This also would require a DOW by Russia on Japan, which could also cause some problems for Russia, as it loses any of it’s deterrents against Japan.


  • 2018 2017

    the DOW is gratuitous, and by itself, has no other implications as you do not need to attack or cross the border but it is required in order to do so.


  • 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Russian DOW is important in balance mod but not normal rules.



  • Well this would be a interesting dilemma for Japan if Russia did something like this.

    The Communist Chinese have arrived

    R1 Russia builds

    • 6 ARM
    • 4 ARM + 3 Mech
      or
    • 9 Mech

    They are reinforced by the 2 mech and 2 arm and 1 Tactical on the map.

    So, that is the totality of the Chinese Communist force. All Russian builds from Turn 2 and onward are all for the Europe map.

    The plan is not to get sucked into the vortex of death in Yunnan, that makes it to easy on Japan. Instead they stick to the north, going as fast as possible to get to Suiyuyan. The idea is that this now forces Japan to cover all of China instead of just focusing on the south. It also forces Japan to move some air power north which will help UK Pacific. The 18 INF in the Far East at first pull back off the coast and once the Communist arrive in northern China they move back to Amur.

    Now china can support them with some INF and they will be able to “can open” for Russia in the north. Another issue Japan will have to contend with IF China is supporting the Russians and not just throwing every unit they have into the vortex of death in Yunnan. ** foot note **: Should China on C1 build all ART and place them in the north to support this plan?

    Now I hear some dudes yelling about what about Calcutta? Well, if the theory holds and Japan does not respect the Communist Chinese threat, then, when Calcutta falls on T4 or 5. The communist have taken Manchuria, Korea and Kiangsu (Shanghai) and taken a Victory city back from Japan on R5 or R6. So in essence losing Calcutta from a VP stand point is then a wash.

    So, how does Japan respond to this type of attack?

    (Yeah, Germany is a issue but in the end not the subject of this discussion.)

    (now there is a timing to this type of attack)

    R1 you move your 2ARM and 2Mech to Novosibirsk
    R2 You move your Chinese Communist into Novosibirsk also, the units you bought on R1.

    Now on R1 and R2 you still have these units near Moscow and can call off the Chinese incursion and head back. In the ideal world Germany DOW on Russia in G3.

    R3 Russia declares war on Japan and moves into Suiyuyan with the communist forces. It is most likely Japan will have some units in this territory and thus when you take it you will violate the Mongolian Pact because you took a Japan held territory next to Mongolia and thus Mongolia will turn true Neutral at that point.

    R3 to R5 the Far East Inf move back into Amur. Depending on what the map looks like and how is Japan responding. Once Mongolia turns true neutral you need to be cautious with your Far East force to make sure they do not move back into Amur and just get blown up because now Japan no longer fears Mongolia going over to Russia and the 6 INF units.

    Now for my final Global insanity plan based on this plan.
    USA5 they violate the Neutrals and go Spanish Beach Head
    UK5 they take down Turkey with Middle Earth plan.
    R6 they take Buyant-Uhann from Chahar and the 18 inf from Amur link up.


  • 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    I could see this working long with USA going hard at Germany, just leave enough on the Pacific side to hold Hawaii and ANZAC. Otherwise the axis will roll all over the Europe map



  • I got a all day game of Global set to play on Sunday and Iam the Allies. I think I will try this and just see how my friends react to it. I will report back on Monday on the 1 game sample size of its effectiveness. Might just try Global Insanity plan just to spice things up.  😄



  • PainState I really like the way you think this into the bigger picture.
    I think an all in buy towards china R1 is a bit to risky and not necessary. Coming in a bit lighter ground forces wise and instead supported by all 3 Russian planes (which can easily be pulled back if needed) would do the trick to.
    Supporting Yunnan is still better than going north in my opinion. It can easily be stacked by China Russia and the brits.

    China rarely own Yunnan at the beginning of C1 and can therefore not buy any artillery.

    Now china can support them with some INF and they will be able to “can open” for Russia in the north. Another issue Japan will have to contend with IF China is supporting the Russians and not just throwing every unit they have into the vortex of death in Yunnan. ** foot note **: Should China on C1 build all ART and place them in the north to support this plan?



  • @Maxiheimer:

    PainState I really like the way you think this into the bigger picture.
    I think an all in buy towards china R1 is a bit to risky and not necessary. Coming in a bit lighter ground forces wise and instead supported by all 3 Russian planes (which can easily be pulled back if needed) would do the trick to.
    Supporting Yunnan is still better than going north in my opinion. It can easily be stacked by China Russia and the brits.

    China rarely own Yunnan at the beginning of C1 and can therefore not buy any artillery.

    Now china can support them with some INF and they will be able to “can open” for Russia in the north. Another issue Japan will have to contend with IF China is supporting the Russians and not just throwing every unit they have into the vortex of death in Yunnan. ** foot note **: Should China on C1 build all ART and place them in the north to support this plan?

    Well if you go in hard round 1 your forces are there in 1 big block. If you can add the 18 inf from the north at some point you might be able to take a huge part of china away from japan.
    China owning 20-25ipcs a turn can be a pain for japan to deal with, it also takes away 10-15 income from japan which they kinda need. Remember kwatung can be captured by china.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Painstate - I proposed something a few years ago quite similar.

    Russian Doctorine: RED DRAGON
    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38118.0

    Also - as opposed to sending the Russians north, I would propose going south, to try and get your mobile Russian force in towards Calcutta.



  • @Maxiheimer:

    Supporting Yunnan is still better than going north in my opinion.

    Ok, I will take a stab at the strategic plan that Yunnan is more important than the threaten northern China plan that I proposed with the Communist Chinese have arrived plan.

    Lets set the board this way with a standard opening move by Japan.

    They take Yunnan, Hunan, Anhwe and Charar.

    Japan has a huge stack of Air power sitting in Kwangsi.

    China Turn 1 Moves ALL their forces back to Shensi and forms a fortress. They have 15 INF + FTR. The Burma road is toast for now and no need to send troops into the vortex of death of Yunnan. So, next turn they will be able to build 2 INF with their 8 IPC.

    Now Russian has the Chinese Communist army formed up on R2, ready to move in.

    Japan on J2 decides to take Suiyuyan, Hopei, Kweichow and Szechwan. Now, Japan though has to decide on how many land units to put into these territories. Remember Japan can not reinforce with air power at this point. All 4 territories can be counter attacked by China if they desire.

    At this point a little table talk from the Russian player to the Japan player might just give you an edge. You point out to him that Russia has 11 mech + 2 arm and 1 tac ready to reinforce Shensi on R3 before J3. Bringing up the defense/Attack of Shensi to 17 INF + 1 FTR from China and 11 Mech +2 arm + 1 tac from the Communist Chinese. That is a titanic stack of units sitting right in the middle of China for Japan to have to deal with. When R3 arrives you DOW on Japan and move your stack into Shensi. You retreat to the corner of the room where the keg of beer is at and pull a 32OZ mug of beer and see what Japan does on J3. Of course regardless of his moves you chuckle and talk to your ally who is playing China in the side room just to make Japan sweat it out a little. Of course do not neglect to mention that the communist also have 18 INF sitting in Amur ready to pounce.

    Now what happens from this point on is pure speculation and totally dictated by the “board” so no need to continue what to do after you rally the Communist with the Nationals in Shensi.

    Here though is the dilemma for Japan.

    They really want to take Calcutta because of the VP city.
    It will take them a lot of effort to take it though.
    China though is a greater threat to Japan than UK Pacific because China not contained can earn more IPC than UK Pacific in the early to mid point of the game.
    China now has enough troops that they can take out lightly defended territories and “can open” for the Communist to blitz even further towards the coast.
    China can retake 2 VP cities if not stopped and thus make knocking out Calcutta a mute point.

    At the end of the day China is a greater threat to Japan than UK Pacific can ever be in the early to mid point of a game.

    That huge stack in Shensi has the potential to wreak a huge amount of damage on Japan if they ignore it and go all hell bent on India.



  • Totally off the subject but strikes my fancy about bids.

    Lets say the Allies get a bid of 21.

    It seems that common belief is that 21 should go to the Euro map to slow up Germany.

    So in the vein of this discussion.

    Why not plop down an extra 7 INF all over China to slow down Japan.

    Coupled with my belief that China is more powerful than UK Pacific.

    IMO most games of Global are won by Japan and not Germany. Slow up Japan seems to be the winning plan of attack.



  • @Gargantua:

    Painstate - I proposed something a few years ago quite similar.

    Russian Doctorine: RED DRAGON
    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38118.0

    Also - as opposed to sending the Russians north, I would propose going south, to try and get your mobile Russian force in towards Calcutta.

    Very interesting ideas you proposed. We are both on the same page of thought on how Russia can tilt the balance in China / Pacific map. Just went at it from opposite sides of the rope on tactics.


  • 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    This is not a comprehensive list, but as far as I know the following list probably accounts for ~90% of games and is pretty much the RUSSIA PLAYBOOK as I understand it:

    1. build all infantry (optional: bid soviet infantry), march everything to Moscow, fly in Allied fighters, die slow. Hope the allies can save the day elsewhere.

    2. same as #1 but send some units to Iraq or (not ‘and’) Finland to try and increase income.

    3. build inf and mech R1 (optional: bid soviet infantry), buy time at Belarus, march far east troops home, fly in Allied fighters, check your battle calculator and buy artillery when its time, counterattack

    4. build tanks R1 (optional: bid artillery on Eastern front), threaten counterattack to delay Barbarossa, take no sh!t from Italy, march far east troops home, counterattack opportunistically

    5. build 3 mechs R1 and send planes to Yunnan (optional: bid fighters in moscow and stalingrad, and/or inf in yunnan and artillery in suiyuyan, shensi, szechwan, kweichow); far east troops go to Buryatia then Amur then Manchuria (optional: bid artillery out east), die, but watch Allies kill Germany

    Gargantua, Cow, and others have discussed these in the past



  • Just my 2cents.

    Another effecrive way to support china is bridging Alaska to SFE. Use starting naval forces + build 1 or 2 more trans and shuttle tanks mec inf to russia then on to korea where us can build factory. If japan has gone in hard to china or india often they will leave the back door open.

    If japan switches to fight off Us backed by the 18 russian inf. Then uk and anzac can recover lost ground.

    If japan ignores it can lead to full invasion or recapturing top half of china. Since us is first after japan in turn sequence they make useful can openers for other allies to back up.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    I’m surprised I’m the only one adding artillery with my bid to the Far East Russian stack.  It does create a fear factor against Japan to have 3 artillery,  18 infantry and 2 AA guns throwing their weight around. 😄


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @variance:

    This is not a comprehensive list, but as far as I know the following list probably accounts for ~90% of games and is pretty much the RUSSIA PLAYBOOK as I understand it:

    1. build all infantry (optional: bid soviet infantry), march everything to Moscow, fly in Allied fighters, die slow. Hope the allies can save the day elsewhere.

    2. same as #1 but send some units to Iraq or (not ‘and’) Finland to try and increase income.

    3. build inf and mech R1 (optional: bid soviet infantry), buy time at Belarus, march far east troops home, fly in Allied fighters, check your battle calculator and buy artillery when its time, counterattack

    4. build tanks R1 (optional: bid artillery on Eastern front), threaten counterattack to delay Barbarossa, take no sh!t from Italy, march far east troops home, counterattack opportunistically

    5. build 3 mechs R1 and send planes to Yunnan (optional: bid fighters in moscow and stalingrad, and/or inf in yunnan and artillery in suiyuyan, shensi, szechwan, kweichow); far east troops go to Buryatia then Amur then Manchuria (optional: bid artillery out east), die, but watch Allies kill Germany

    Gargantua, Cow, and others have discussed these in the past

    This is actually a really good post; with a pretty complete breakdown of viable options.  Those are the primary concepts.



  • It depends a lot on what germany did on round 1 what to do with russia, as with all the allies they are a reactive force at the start of the game.


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