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UK/USSR VS Germany/Italy



  • I got a game coming up, it will be one on one and I will be playing the Allies. I’m contemplating going full 100% Pacific with my USA economy with the exception of perhaps 1 or 2 transports and maybe a destroyer in the Atlantic just to activate Brazil and get those troops over to Africa. Question is do you think the USSR and UK can contain Germany and. Italy enough until the Pacific allies can conquer Tokyo? What key moves should be made by UK, Taranto or Tobruk? Factory in Persia? I’m pretty sure I’m going all Inf/Art with USSR but am open to suggestions as well. I’m about 99% sure Germany will not go SL, especially after a 6 Inf/1 Fighter buy UK1.



  • Once the Axis realize what is going on, don’t discount a Sealion attack.  The Germans can and will outproduce the UK, and should not be underestimated.  If this is your plan from the beginning, you may consider building on London from the start to deter anything but a massive purchase on Germany’s part.  That will make Sealion unlikely unless the Russians are dominated from the get go.  For Russia the infantry and artillery are a good combo for defense, although the occasional fighter is nice to give a few extra hits and much needed maneuverability.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Short answer being no. UK and USSR cannot hold off Germany.

    I think you should reconsider this idea. The sooner USA can take and hold Germany territory, the longer USSR can survive.



  • If UK can hold the Middle East and Egypt then yes. They can hold off Germany long enough for US to switch back to Europe IF US doesn’t take too long against Japan. Germany will eventually overpower the European allies without US intervention, but you can stall Germany for some time. You can lose all the Russian VCs and still get the win. I feel a lot of players think all is lost once Moscow falls. You can slow Germany long enough to allow US to focus on Japan through the early and into the intermediate game. Spend too long focusing on Japan or allow Germany to take Moscow too early and you could easily be facing some poor odds though.

    US fighters could reach Egypt in two turns if you really need to hold that last VC in Europe. Just be cautious of London’s defense as it could be vulnerable if you’re putting most/all the US money into the Pacific. I’ve lost a couple games when I wrote off the threat to London when US wasn’t in the Atlantic and Germany was building land/air. One turn is all it takes for Germany to reposition its large airforce and put down 9-10 transports.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    The game is also not won for the Allies if Moscow does not fall. The big challenge is to hold the Middle East after a successful defense of Moscow (since the Soviet troops are typically slow movers).

    Recently I thought I had this figured out and a strong hold on the Middle East with the UK, but it’s not that obvious.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Have to agree with this point. If Germany is holding the north and moving into middle east freely, unless Japan are dying or the USA are strongly coming in from the west, there isn’t a lot the Allies can do.

    In one game I moved towards the German onslaught from Russia to Bryansk and but down a 3 inf blocker in Rostov to block the Italian can open - blitz into Caucasus and Stalingrad moves. Once the python strangle is one Moscow’s value is reduced.



  • Try to do both Taranto and Tobruk with the UK. Weakens Italy from the getgo and forces the Germans to pull resources to the south. Grab Ethopia. Build layers of defense for USSR and make Germany pay a huge price for each IPC they get in USSR. That will force them into 2 directions. Build a factory in Persia and/ or Iraq. But make sure that they push a majority of their forces into USSR. UK and what is left over of France should try to hold the Med. If you can, have the US build up for a few rounds to help out. Then commit to the Pacific. Sea Lion is almost 100% going to happen if you do this. Defend the UK and its empire and make the Euro Axis pay large prices for territories. You want to make Germany and Italy pay a harsh price for taking territories(Important places to defend - Egypt , Middle East , Moscow , London). Build up large forces to push into Germany after destroying their fleet(build up a UK fleet to invade Mainland Europe).

    Anyways that is my two cents.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Extremely difficult to do both Taranto and Tobruk. You throw away the TT for sure. Then your troops aren’t positioned to attack Ethiopia but you’re going to say they don’t have to be.



  • i can hit all 3 with about 75% sucesuss rate. With the hit of Tobruk at about 60%. Usally if Tobruk fails, the Axis is left with a fighter brought from Germany. The whole idea behind hitting all three is- t-o severely limit Italy on I1.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @Hunter:

    i can hit all 3 with about 75% sucesuss rate. With the hit of Tobruk at about 60%. Usally if Tobruk fails, the Axis is left with a fighter brought from Germany. The whole idea behind hitting all three is- t-o severely limit Italy on I1.

    How would you do that?



  • @simon33:

    @Hunter:

    i can hit all 3 with about 75% sucesuss rate. With the hit of Tobruk at about 60%. Usally if Tobruk fails, the Axis is left with a fighter brought from Germany. The whole idea behind hitting all three is- t-o severely limit Italy on I1.

    How would you do that?

    Depends heavily on the Bid, with a bid of 21 it’s very achievable though. Put Bid Units as follows.

    Artillery > Alexandria
    Artillery > Sudan
    Tank > Edgypt
    Transport > SZ71

    Combat Moves

    SZ98 Transport (Inf+Art) and Tactical, Alexandria Force, Mech from Egypt > Tobruk
    SZ71 Trans (2 Inf) Anglo Sudan Force, Tank from Egypt > Ethiopa

    SZ91 + Gib Fighter > SZ96
    SZ98 Fleet + Malta Fighter + 2 Fighter UK and Strat > SZ97

    So each battle looks like this

    Tobruk:
    UK - 3 Inf 3 Art 1 Tank 1 Tac
    Italy - 3 Inf 1 Mech 1 Art 1 Tank (1 German Fighter maybe?)
    UK win 96% of time or 67% if German Fighter is there
    Ethiopa:
    UK - 3 Inf 1 Art 1 Tank
    Italy - 2 Inf 1 Art
    UK win 94% of time
    SZ96:
    UK - 1 Cruiser 1 Fighter
    Italy - 1 Destroyer
    UK win 95% of time
    SZ97:
    UK - 1 Carrier 1 Destroyer 1 Cruiser 3 Fighter 1 Strat
    Italy - 1 Cruiser 1 Battleship (2-3 Fighter Maybe?)
    UK win 76% even with max scramble.

    For Noncom make sure to Have India Fleet Actuvate Persia so now if Italy Takes Egypt with its lone Transport you can attack with a loaded Transport from Persia, your Trans Jordan man, any Ethiopan Forces alive, plus your Fighter, Tactical, and Strat that possibly landed in Malta. So unless the Luftwaffe is positioned to reinforce Egypt the Brits can take it back.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Can’t agree with the no sub bid.

    You’re also assuming no real losses g1.



  • @simon33:

    Can’t agree with the no sub bid.

    You’re also assuming no real losses g1.

    What do you mean no real losses? You simply don’t scramble. Also most players don’t go for SZ91 and instead go for 106.  Questioning it being alive is like assuming Japan to do J1 and instead of going for Phillipines going for Hawaii.  I don’t see your points at all Simon. Also that is just with a bid of 21. If it’s 29 you could put a destroyer in 91. Which would allow that Gib Fighter to then Hit Tobruk instead which would really raise those odds.  I think you can see that doing Ethiopa/Tobruk/Taranto/Persia all on UK1 if you dedicate your bid to doing such.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    I mean you’re assuming they don’t hit anything you care about like the Cruiser in SZ91. If you’re committed to no scramble, then maybe you can do that.

    One thing you can’t do is send the Gibraltar fighter after Tobruk. It doesn’t have the range.

    21 seems a pretty high bid to me. I think a lot of the problem with the lack of balance in this game is the victory city rule which favours the axis.

    Also, 75% odds is pretty low with the consequences of a failed attack on SZ97 doing it that way. It’s basically the game lost right there, 25% of the time. With those other attacks you’re committing to, Egypt is going down - even if the SZ97 battle is a draw. 2 inf + 1 tac left, which will be attacked probably by 2inf 1art 1arm.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @ProtesT:

    I got a game coming up, it will be one on one and I will be playing the Allies. I’m contemplating going full 100% Pacific with my USA economy with the exception of perhaps 1 or 2 transports and maybe a destroyer in the Atlantic just to activate Brazil and get those troops over to Africa. Question is do you think the USSR and UK can contain Germany and. Italy enough until the Pacific allies can conquer Tokyo?

    No.

    You won’t ever capture Tokyo before Germany/Italy get enough victory cities to win.

    What you can do - and I have a legacy of trying KJF (Kill Japan First) games - is cripple Japan and secure the Pacific before refocusing and saving Europe from the Fascists.

    The goal here is to knock down the Japanese fleet so that ANZAC/India can keep pressure on and deny the Japanese NOs.  Eventually China will be secured.  Japan itself won’t ever be conquered, but that’s moot.

    After the goal is achieved, it’s a matter of getting reinforcements into Russia.  England’s goal will be to get planes to Russia and secure Africa to prevent Italy from growing too large. It’s a race against the clock because if you wait too long, Germany will be unstoppable (they do make 2 to 3 times as much as Russia.)


  • 2018 2016

    This is for NO BID players

    We find that the combination on UK1 usually consists of Taranto, Tobruk (if available) and activating Persia.
    As such
    Taranto
    Bmr, 2 ftrs London >SZ97 use AC in 98 if needed
    Tac, DD, CR SZ98 > SZ97
    ftr Malta > SZ 97
    74% win with full 3 ftr scramble from S. Italy, BB, CR SZ 97

    Tobruk only if available (UK CR in 91 alive)
    CR, ftr Gib > SZ 96
    95% win with Italian DD

    Art, inf Egypt via TT to 96 >Tobruk
    2 inf, art, armor Alexandria > Tobruk
    mech Egypt > Tobruk
    66% win its iffy but worth it.

    Activate Persia
    Art from india pick up inf w. India

    Move CR to 80 move BB to 79 for Iraq bombard next turn.

    This has pretty much neutered Italy for the long term in practically 80% of our games. Ethiopia or Iraq gets slammed in the following round.

    Non Combat
    UK places blockers in Kenya and Anglo Egypt Sudan, DD SZ71 > SZ 81
    Everything else lands in the usual places. AC retreats if needed.

    USSR has a lot more options in our NO BID game.
    We push into China which allows our USA player a bit of room and frustrates Japan. Suiyuyan becomes a base of operations for the the final push to Manchuria with all of the Amur joining in. Use the chinese to can open so you don’t upset the mongolians. Read pg 39 of the AAP40 rule book 3rd paragraph last sentence

    So if the Chinese can get Manchuria you can non combat in there and blast infantry all the way to Shanghai.

    UK sends Ftrs to Moscow via Persia. We usually only send the Buryatia inf west as they are the only ones who can really make it in time to do anything R6. At that point Germany is probably about to siege Moscow.

    With the massive impending American landing becoming a reality Germany always begins to contemplate a big troop purchase. Italy is never a factor after about one can opener because they get bombed by USA from Algeria. Most of this strategy relies on the fact that the USA commits early to the European theater with an occasional submarine purchase in W. USA. Yes, Japan becomes a monster but with a little help from the USSR when needed, China can cause major problems and keep the India crush as a non starter along with the USA subs. Japan can be reduced to trying to get mainland asia back.

    We borrowed/modified some stuff from Young Grasshopper’s strategies and played around with it bit and made it just a smidge better (read as more effective) in our opinion.

    Thoughts? Please feel free to poke holes in this as it help me to find counter attacks that I haven’t seen or thought of



  • @simon33:

    I mean you’re assuming they don’t hit anything you care about like the Cruiser in SZ91. If you’re committed to no scramble, then maybe you can do that.

    One thing you can’t do is send the Gibraltar fighter after Tobruk. It doesn’t have the range.

    21 seems a pretty high bid to me. I think a lot of the problem with the lack of balance in this game is the victory city rule which favours the axis.

    Also, 75% odds is pretty low with the consequences of a failed attack on SZ97 doing it that way. It’s basically the game lost right there, 25% of the time. With those other attacks you’re committing to, Egypt is going down - even if the SZ97 battle is a draw. 2 inf + 1 tac left, which will be attacked probably by 2inf 1art 1arm.

    Excuse me on the gib fighter. As for 21 being a high bid, are you serious? I would t even play for 21 personally, 29 I MIGHT consider.  Also 75% odds are completely fine for Taranto since I’m doing Tobruk as well and have a 89% chance of at least one of those happening… If they take Egypt with 4 Units I can take it right back, I have a loaded transport from Persia and very likely a loaded transport from Ethiopa, PLUS my Trans Jordan Inf as well as the Strat Bomber and Tac Bomber that can reach… As for SZ91 let me repeat myself, most players target SZ106 instead.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    What TransJordan inf? If Taranto failed you’d send the Tac somewhere like Malta or Alexandria to try to keep it alive? Interesting theory.

    I can’t see what you’ve done with the Mec, but the best I can see is 2TTs two tanks and the Mec + the tac.

    It’s possible that you can retake it if enough is left. Perhaps Italy would hit TransJordan instead and stage into Iraq or Egypt.

    I can’t agree with hitting Persia from India. Not getting on Sumatra sacrifices India which I would count as more important.



  • @simon33:

    What TransJordan inf? If Taranto failed you’d send the Tac somewhere like Malta or Alexandria to try to keep it alive? Interesting theory.

    I can’t see what you’ve done with the Mec, but the best I can see is 2TTs two tanks and the Mec + the tac.

    It’s possible that you can retake it if enough is left. Perhaps Italy would hit TransJordan instead and stage into Iraq or Egypt.

    I can’t agree with hitting Persia from India. Not getting on Sumatra sacrifices India which I would count as more important.

    excuse the Trans Jordan, I confused the G42 setup (where there is one) also what about the Strat Bomber that came down for Taranto and landed in Malta?  Or if I saw that Egypt could fall I could send the Indian RAF to Brit Somaliand.  But you are missing the whole point of this, it started with you questioning how in the world could taranto, tobruk, and ethiopa all be done in one turn with favorable odds.  The way was presented to you so instead of critiquing why you wouldn’t do battles of 75% odds just understand that doing all 3 is possible.  And also realize that in a game that is majorly against the allies, 75% odds are damn good for them and shouldn’t be snided at or considered doomed to fail.  Prior to this thread I had never considered being able to do all 3 attacks on UK1, but I have now found a way and intend to use it.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Righto.

    I wouldn’t do that. Perhaps we should leave it at that.

    There is one thing though.  If taranto has failed, the Strat bomber is dead.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    To follow on from my previous post with a more thoughtful reply, doing it like this is something I’ll have to think a bit more about.

    A couple of points that I hate though:

    1. Not bringing in the Tac, even though it doesn’t need to land on the CV.
    2. Expending the CV on absorbing 2 hits
    3. Lack of potential blocker in case of Taranto failing.
    4. Lack of a sub bid out of a 21 bid
    5. Using valuable bid money on a TT while throwing another one away to hit Tobruk.

    You’ve got to figure on at least one of the attacks going bad hitting it this hard. Perhaps if Taranto goes bad and the other three succeed (including SZ96) - what does Italy do? That’s going to be a big question. With two remaining TTs, it can get on Egypt, but depending on how many units are around the Brits can take it back. I guess that’s the big question. In any event, nothing can be done to stop Italy landing on TransJordan and an inf and a tank there is very unlikely to fall to the ANZACs. Perhaps survivors are stronger than I am thinking? 4.24 from Tobruk, one of which is a plane can probably be taken out by the Libya force with air support 1.46inf +art+tank in Ethiopia would help crush any Egypt landing - I see that point.

    They may hit Egypt and TransJordan and likely take both down. Given that they can always occupy TransJ, they may be well advised to do so. The other option they have is hitting Syria and TJ. That means they can get on Iraq I2 unless the allies get there first. Perhaps if the Allies brought an art from India, they can block the Iraq move. Still, if the UK is sacrificing India for med, I’d have to say that as an Axis player I’d be very happy. Getting on Persia UK1 instead of UK2 generally makes minimal difference, as does that 1 inf from West India.



  • The whole point of the Transport is that you can only put bid units where like units exist, so with 21 as I stated the Brits have put a land unit in every possible spot, but by putting a Trans down in the bid it is as if they got to put down 2 more Inf since there are 2 Inf starting in South Africa. Plus as you mentioned you sacrifice your transport by doing Tobruk, but you automatically have a replacement so as to Shuck 2 men up to Egypt every other turn, and 2 Tanks/Mech on the off turn so as to have a good shuck shuck to defend Egypt and yet still prepare an Invasion force.



  • @Tirano:

    The whole point of the Transport is that you can only put bid units where like units exist

    Have the bid rules changed? I thought that limitation only applied to sea units?



  • @ScottishOne:

    @Tirano:

    The whole point of the Transport is that you can only put bid units where like units exist

    Have the bid rules changed? I thought that limitation only applied to sea units?

    Well bidding is a house rule, but yes I’ve always known it to apply for land. I’m other wise with a bid of 21 why not 7 Inf in Paris? That would force Germans to send Some Luftwaffe there which would mean I could keep 110 or 111 alive. Or the Germans could simply attack it with no air and possibly lose, leaving it to the Italians (which the British air could have reinforced Paris by then).


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @ScottishOne:

    @Tirano:

    The whole point of the Transport is that you can only put bid units where like units exist

    Have the bid rules changed? I thought that limitation only applied to sea units?

    League has the default rule as it applying everywhere.


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