Brainstorming for the Central Powers



  • @Frontovik:

    @xxstefanx:

    Yes.
    Destroying the 6 Romanian and 4 Serbian units right away is the best trade-off you can get R1 with AH.
    Losses = 5.
    You conquer both tts and get 5 IPCs which is almost 2 Inf.
    So basically it is 10/3 which is � a big one you could not afford to miss out.
    (AND: Russia cannot counter it.)

    Economics change to:
    CPs: 82 IPCs (84 if AH is lucky and takes Tuscany!)
    Allies: 108 IPCs

    With the maximum AH stack in Galicia Germany is prepared to make 11 additional IPCs R1:

    • Poland 3
    • Holland 2
    • Belgium 2
    • Africa: 4
      (SO that would already be 93/97!
      Still a slight disadvantage numerically BUT US cannot make itself felt on the battlefields for at least 6 rounds!

    i wouldn’t study economics if I were you
    no, just joking, but you did make some calculation errors:
    the CP cannot hold africa, so 8 IPCS go, while the allies can take it, and extras (congo, mozambique, angola, ethiopia, spanish morocco)
    also; the pro-allied neutrals are not included, like portugal, arabia, albania and such
    the ottomans give ground against overwhelming british forces, but that’s later in the game so i understand your calculation.

    but my plan was concerning the russians: not only giving them a hit on the stomach in A1 but a hit on the Ukrainehead in A2 and G2….

    No need to.
    I already have a diploma - and feel insulted!
    I did not make any “calculation errors” as it is just a momentary picture for R1 and2 with the general flow of income.

    CP have to develop along a certain income line to close the gap whether Russia or Italy is the main (first) target.

    For instance Germany:
    R1 46 IPC
    R2 target 50 IPCs

    • by getting more in Russia
    • Make Lorraine or holding ground in the west
    • hopefully minimal direct losses in Africa
      R3 (or R4) BIG BANG 55+ IPCs
    • here is where the transport (or 2) come in taking Russian tts

    Tempo is so important for the CPs in this game, maybe even more than in the other A&A games.
    Africa serves just to cash in some additional income to fuel the European warfare IMMEDIATELY!

    In the 2 games the CPs won so far Germany had reached 55 and 57 IPC by R3!
    With that power he could start piling masses marching west.

    If Russia is sacked by R4/R5 by RR the Austrians must be at the Gates of Italy before the Americans go elsewhere.
    The CP initiative must always be utilized to significantly reduce Allied options:
    No US reinforcements = Italy Fall!



  • Only the centrals  are gaining income it seems like.

    What about Albania, Portugal, Rumania, and allies taking some African territories?

    I want to know why the Allies in your R1 and R2 scenario are sitting idile while the Centrals are taking everything.

    Does Russia in your games make a navy and Great Britian builds artillery on the Island first 3 turns?



  • Short answer: They don’t!

    But this does not take anything away from this opening!
    (or do you have a better R1 AH opening for a Russian strategy?)

    Longer Answer: Russian does not build a navy and UK not only arts R1-R3!  😉

    Even longer answer: The Allies take what they can too. (and that softens the income closing).
                                The CPs still move that way…AND the game itself leans toward the Allies balancewise with an estimate of 60:40 but even 40 means a win chance as it is a dice rolling game with a great
                                portion of luck possibly deciding games or supporting certain outcomes!



  • In all my games the Allies gain almost as much income as the CP in the first couple rounds

    If the Allies are sitting on there hands the first couple turns, then that would explain your 60/40



  • @Uncrustable:

    In all my games the Allies gain almost as much income as the CP in the first couple rounds

    If the Allies are sitting on there hands the first couple turns, then that would explain your 60/40

    agreed



  • That is no new knowledge at all!

    Do the maths:
    With CP starting at 77 IPCS and Allies 113 IPCs the CPs never have a chance to eliminate the disadvantage economically without RUssia out of the picture!
    How could they?
    With Russia’s 25 IPCs out and the CPs having conquered some/many of their tts it’s (probably) the only effective way to have a chance - considering some “nice” dice rolling - at all!

    So the ration might swing in best case slightly in favor of the CPs after R4/R5 OR NEVER!
    Most likely very good Allied play and at least on par dice that won’T happen though!
    The game is biased - even with perfect CP play - towards Allies victory!

    Our estimate atm is at 60% Allies vs. 40% CPs.
    (might even be 70% vs. 30% though)

    BUT even 30% is a chance of winning for CP!

    Question is: Is there a better way of purchasing/moving/strategy to get a better picture?
    Knocking out Italy?
    You tell me!

    P.S: There might be another alternative by sustaining the disadvantage  for some time and  possibly getting the RR at VERY LOW COST (essential!) in later turns! I don’t think so, but MAYBE! If someone likes to explore that path and can come up with some decent statistical data (meaning gameoutcomes on average dice rolls on both sides!) this would be very much appreciated! OF course it is best to utilize “low luck” for proving or dismissing strategies!



  • XXS: you contradict yourself

    You say the CPs don’t have a chance, and the game is biased towards the allies…
    Then you turn around and say the game is 60/40 and the CPs do have a chance lol

    60/40 is pretty close to a balanced game

    But 60/40 is wildly inaccurate, much closer to 20/80, or CPs winning 1 in 5
    But even that is being a little generous



  • It helps if you read my post with the necessary attention!  :lol:



  • @xxstefanx:

    It helps if you read my post with the necessary attention!  :lol:

    It helps if your not a sap 😞



  • No offence… I am on your side:
    CPs have a hard time!
    There is no need for arguing about the exact percentages!
    In our group it is 40%/60% atm.
    Maybe here it is worse because players do not use my strategy?  😄
    (JOKE!)

    The thread is titled “Brainstorming” so why don’t we flesh out some strategies (in detail) along the following line:
    1. Russia blow
    2. Italy blow
    3. Tank March (east)
    4. ?



  • So is it here like in most internet forums?

    IF it comes to constructive work which might need some effort all posters are gone!
    Bla bla bla seems all that counts…!  😞

    Has anybody elaborated a at least theoretically consistent Italy strategy?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @xxstefanx:

    So is it here like in most internet forums?

    IF it comes to constructive work which might need some effort all posters are gone!
    Bla bla bla seems all that counts…!  😞

    Has anybody elaborated a at least theoretically consistent Italy strategy?

    Build lots of artillery, and a plane or two.  Make Hungary pay for their meal.


  • Customizer

    There shouldn’t be anything remotely like an “Italy strategy”.

    If the Allies all act in their own individual interests they will lose. If they act according to a coordinated strategy they should win.



  • @Flashman:

    There shouldn’t be anything remotely like an “Italy strategy”.

    If the Allies all act in their own individual interests they will lose. If they act according to a coordinated strategy they should win.

    Even then, the Allies may still win when they act in their own individual interests.


  • '10

    I think he’s talking about a kill Italy strategy.  It’s actually kinda tempting, with Italy being the poorest of the Allies.  They have no solid way to get reinforcements, either–at least not 'til America gets in the game.

    Italy Crush could certainly work to some extent, at least. No way can they stand up to the combined might of Germany and the Hungries, and if you can arrange it so the Germans end up taking Rome, the jerries would have a place to build boats in the Med (you can build from captured seaports, right?), which would take a bit of heat off the Ottomans.

    The question would be where to pull juice from.  I’m liking the “stall France, build G-Boats” approach, but I’ve used it to roll up Russia instead of other Allies.  If you’re willing to forego totally removing Russia A.S.A.P., some original German units could divert south.

    Brainstorming.


  • Customizer

    No, you can’t build from captured seaports, nor can their mines be used against enemy ships. All you do by capturing them is stop the enemy using them.


  • '10

    Hmm, there goes that, then.



  • Eudemonist understood it right: Of course Kill Italy (fast) and Kill Russia (fast) is meant.

    Point is: I am especially interested how an Italy Crush would be effectively performed! And if it it a viable strategy at all!

    Purchases, Moves, Battles per round for all forces as of course one crucial point is how to balance the other fronts if moving as much as possible towards Italy!
    And what is the maximum pressure there? How much of the new builds can go towards Italy? What are the best OT moves to support the strategy … and so on.

    A detailled picture…



  • Our experience with a kill Italy first hasn’t been to good. The CP can def against the Russians, but they are generally fighting both the Italians and French in Italy (can’t really go full tilt to Italy, and put the French on their heals). The French will activate the Albanians, and the Italians pick them up and bring them home. The French also send over the Portuguese to Rome, bulk up in Burgundy, and follow them in. They can also transport units ahead as well (or pick up a few units from North Africa) after they drop off the Portuguese. Even if the CP manage to drop Rome, they probably aren’t coming out, and the US is also now in the picture. I’m not saying it can’t work, but the allies have some tricks up their sleeves.



  • @WILD:

    Our experience with a kill Italy first hasn’t been to good. The CP can def against the Russians, but they are generally fighting both the Italians and French in Italy (can’t really go full tilt to Italy, and put the French on their heals). The French will activate the Albanians, and the Italians pick them up and bring them home. The French also send over the Portuguese to Rome, bulk up in Burgundy, and follow them in. They can also transport units ahead as well (or pick up a few units from North Africa) after they drop off the Portuguese. Even if the CP manage to drop Rome, they probably aren’t coming out, and the US is also now in the picture. I’m not saying it can’t work, but the allies have some tricks up their sleeves.

    What was your kill Italy first strategy?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I use the kill Italy first strategy.

    Austrians and Ottomans go after them, while Germany goes for France which forces UK to help only France. When Italy is gone the French crumble as Austrians attack south France.

    We hold the Russians at bay until Italy falls and can win at Paris. Ottomans help out against Russia after Italy falls.



  • @Imperious:

    I use the kill Italy first strategy.

    Austrians and Ottomans go after them, while Germany goes for France which forces UK to help only France. When Italy is gone the French crumble as Austrians attack south France.

    We hold the Russians at bay until Italy falls and can win at Paris. Ottomans help out against Russia after Italy falls.

    IL, I’m not sure how you would have the Ottomans go after Italy (could you elaborate?). It would take them 4 turns just to get to Venice moving one territory at a time (haven’t seen too many transports for the CP in the Med). I think it could be viable w/Larry’s 2-move, but in the slow paced OOB I don’t see the Turks doing anything in a KIF, other then watch the Austrians back side and help def against Russia. The Turks need to keep fighting for their own territories (Balkans/Mid East/Russia), and try to improve their income to be relevant. If they send a good size force to the west, they will surly fall because they won’t be gaining any income moving through Austrian land.

    Normally what I’ve seen in a KIF is the Austrians hit Venice with everything that can get there A1 (to try and capture it), and keep sending in reinforcements over the next few turns. Although I haven’t tried it, I also like the thought of attacking Tuscany with a couple inf A1 just to trade units with the Italians and get bombardment (would continue transporting over a few troops as long as the navy lives).

    The Germans are generally split between defending against Russia (along with the Turks and a contingent from Austria as needed), and heading off the French in Northern Italy so they don’t sandwich the Austrians between themselves, and the Italians. When the Germans have to split their forces between Russia, and France, they aren’t going to be pushing anyone around IMO, only trying to hold the line (sure they may get a slight advantage on one front, but they will stall). Sometimes the Germans will need to splinter off and go into Rome to mop up.

    In our games the French activate the Albanians so the Italians can bring them back to Rome, and continuously transport defending units into Italy. By the time Austria gets to Rome, they find a pretty damn good size force waiting for them. It isn’t going to fall in just one turn, and this stall works to the allies advantage, because the supply lines are much faster for the French into Italy (through Burgundy, or by transport), then for either of the CPs (but at least the Italians aren’t making much by this time, and only getting a couple inf). You can knock the hell out of Italy, you might even be able to take Rome, but the French aren’t exactly shaking in their boots, and Russia isn’t going anywhere either. Plus by time you actually take Rome, the US can be in position to liberate them. Your depleted attacking force will be defending now, and your supply lines are still very long.

    Although Italy might be the weakest allied power, they are in good position to receive help. The “Boot”  can also be a trap killing off many CP units. I think in order for the CP to have a chance OOB, they must go after one of the big guns (Russia, or France). I’m not sure if the CP can afford to get into a naval arms race (and keep a steady flow of ground troops), but the sea is a very powerful tool for the allies.



  • @Imperious:

    I use the kill Italy first strategy.

    Austrians and Ottomans go after them, while Germany goes for France which forces UK to help only France. When Italy is gone the French crumble as Austrians attack south France.

    We hold the Russians at bay until Italy falls and can win at Paris. Ottomans help out against Russia after Italy falls.

    french are strong enough to hold germans on their own, and the russians cannot be stopped with just austrians and ottomans, certainly if austrians assault italy and brits are pushing against ottomans (because they don’t really need to help defend france)



  • And surviving Italians are repaired in the same round. I have no idea why this would be a good strategy. Having my AH fleet bolstered by a sub every turn makes it so that others can’t move their navies away and when the French or whoever move their fleet away i immediatly attack the fleet that remains. And by the time Rome is conquered then the mines are gone and by that time my five subs can wreak havoc on all ships with no minefield to stop them after their first move out of the Adriatic.


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