Building IC on foreign soil



  • The Alpha +2 rules state that no IC can be built on foreign soil. What about the territories of Shantung and Kiangsu?  These are Japanese controlled at the beginning of the game, but show a Chinese symbol on them. Can Japan build an IC on these territories?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    No.

    Because they have the Chinese symbol, they are originally Chinese - by technical definition.



  • you can allways build a minor industrial complex in a area with the value of 2.

    http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4167&sid=975536e164134db1de09d8706259b465



  • @Gargantua:

    No.

    Because they have the Chinese symbol, they are originally Chinese - by technical definition.

    You could also way they are originally Japanese, because that’s how they are when the game starts.  I always thought the Chinese symbol was there only to show that if the Allies get it it goes to China, not the conquering player.



  • @Ruanek:

    @Gargantua:

    No.

    Because they have the Chinese symbol, they are originally Chinese - by technical definition.

    You could also way they are originally Japanese, because that’s how they are when the game starts.  I always thought the Chinese symbol was there only to show that if the Allies get it it goes to China, not the conquering player.

    But that would be wrong.  I believe this goes back to AA50, when there were two starting setups but there needed to be a definition for “original owner” because it wasn’t as if Japan or Germany suddenly became the original owner of the occupied territories they started with in the different setups.

    AAP1940 begins after Japan started their war with China, thus the coast is ORIGINALLY Chinese territories with a Japanese occupation force.  With Alpha rules, Japan can no longer build MAJOR ICs in the territories marked by the Chinese Roundel.

    Of course, it would make even more sense if the setup had Japanese Roundels marking the territories Japan is “occupying” at the start and they hadn’t been colored orange….


  • Customizer

    I always put a Japanese control marker in those occupied Chinese territories when I first set up.  I’m surprised they don’t tell you to do that in the published set up charts.



  • @kcdzim:

    @Ruanek:

    @Gargantua:

    No.

    Because they have the Chinese symbol, they are originally Chinese - by technical definition.

    You could also way they are originally Japanese, because that’s how they are when the game starts.  I always thought the Chinese symbol was there only to show that if the Allies get it it goes to China, not the conquering player.

    But that would be wrong.  I believe this goes back to AA50, when there were two starting setups but there needed to be a definition for “original owner” because it wasn’t as if Japan or Germany suddenly became the original owner of the occupied territories they started with in the different setups.

    AAP1940 begins after Japan started their war with China, thus the coast is ORIGINALLY Chinese territories with a Japanese occupation force.  With Alpha rules, Japan can no longer build MAJOR ICs in the territories marked by the Chinese Roundel.

    Of course, it would make even more sense if the setup had Japanese Roundels marking the territories Japan is “occupying” at the start and they hadn’t been colored orange….

    The problem with that is most of the Axis’ territories technically didn’t originally belong to them.  Granted, most of those nations aren’t represented in the game, but Holland actually is to a degree.  But we don’t see restrictions to their other territories even though those aren’t “originally controlled”.



  • @Ruanek:

    @kcdzim:

    @Ruanek:

    @Gargantua:

    No.

    Because they have the Chinese symbol, they are originally Chinese - by technical definition.

    You could also way they are originally Japanese, because that’s how they are when the game starts.  I always thought the Chinese symbol was there only to show that if the Allies get it it goes to China, not the conquering player.

    But that would be wrong.  I believe this goes back to AA50, when there were two starting setups but there needed to be a definition for “original owner” because it wasn’t as if Japan or Germany suddenly became the original owner of the occupied territories they started with in the different setups.

    AAP1940 begins after Japan started their war with China, thus the coast is ORIGINALLY Chinese territories with a Japanese occupation force.  With Alpha rules, Japan can no longer build MAJOR ICs in the territories marked by the Chinese Roundel.

    Of course, it would make even more sense if the setup had Japanese Roundels marking the territories Japan is “occupying” at the start and they hadn’t been colored orange….

    The problem with that is most of the Axis’ territories technically didn’t originally belong to them.  Granted, most of those nations aren’t represented in the game, but Holland actually is to a degree.  But we don’t see restrictions to their other territories even though those aren’t “originally controlled”.

    Very true.  It’s a wierdness no doubt.  But the other territories that Germany has annexed at setup are essentially all individual european nations and not parts of a larger nation.  Holland, Denmark, Norway, France, etc contributed in concert with the western allies, while China was more or less fighting it’s own fight and getting back it’s own territory.



  • @Ruanek:

    The problem with that is most of the Axis’ territories technically didn’t originally belong to them.  Granted, most of those nations aren’t represented in the game, but Holland actually is to a degree.  But we don’t see restrictions to their other territories even though those aren’t “originally controlled”.

    But technically, most of the US was originally controlled by Native American tribes, so they shouldn’t be able to have Major IC’s there, correct?  😉

    I wouldn’t worry about this too much. Whether you think it’s historically correct or not, it was implemented by Larry to prevent the US from conquering Norway and then building a major factory 2 spaces from Berlin or some other ridiculous circumstance, which actually is historically correct. I’m no WWII buff, but I’m fairly certain that the US wouldn’t have been able to mobilize the same amount of industrial war material in Norway as it did in the Eastern US.

    Either way, just think of it as a necessary rule where historical accuracy takes a backseat to gameplay.



  • @McMan:

    But technically, most of the US was originally controlled by Native American tribes, so they shouldn’t be able to have Major IC’s there, correct?  😉

    Not to mention that Texas was originally controlled by Mexico 😉



  • @Gallo:

    @McMan:

    But technically, most of the US was originally controlled by Native American tribes, so they shouldn’t be able to have Major IC’s there, correct?  😉

    Not to mention that Texas was originally controlled by Mexico 😉

    Which was also controlled by Native Americans  😄



  • Back to the issue: so Japan can only build new a industrial complex in Korea



  • @McMan:

    @Gallo:

    @McMan:

    But technically, most of the US was originally controlled by Native American tribes, so they shouldn’t be able to have Major IC’s there, correct?  😉

    Not to mention that Texas was originally controlled by Mexico 😉

    Which was also controlled by Native Americans  😄

    Aztecs 😉


  • Official Q&A

    From the AAP40 Rulebook, page 9:

    Chinese territories on the game board have a Nationalist Chinese nationality symbol on them.  Some of these territories begin the game already under Japanese control.  They still are considered Chinese territories for purposes of original ownership.

    @Gallo:

    Back to the issue: so Japan can only build new a industrial complex in Korea

    Japan can build a new major industrial complex only in Korea.



  • I am a firm believer that unless the rules explicitly prevent it, it is fair game. Rules were meant to make the game balanced and fun, not to be a constitution. The Japanese start with that territory, so they can build an IC there if they want. The rule is designed to prevent the Germans from upgrading London, and holding it indefinately, to keep Japan from building an IC in Malaya, and to keep the US from building on in Norway or Korea. IMHO The only reason the chinese symbol is on those territories is to indicate range of movement



  • @Krieghund:

    From the AAP40 Rulebook, page 9:

    Chinese territories on the game board have a Nationalist Chinese nationality symbol on them.  Some of these territories begin the game already under Japanese control.  They still are considered Chinese territories for purposes of original ownership.

    @Gallo:

    Back to the issue: so Japan can only build new a industrial complex in Korea

    Japan can build a new major industrial complex only in Korea.

    SO, to simplify, a MAJOR IC can only be built on a territory with your flag, and an IPC of 3 of higher; and a MINOR IC can be built on ANY non-island territory with an IPC of 2 or higher.


  • Official Q&A

    @ThomasJefferson:

    IMHO The only reason the chinese symbol is on those territories is to indicate range of movement

    Per the rule I quoted above, the reason the Chinese symbol is on those territories is to indicate that they are considered original Chinese territories, for all purposes.

    @Birdman86:

    SO, to simplify, a MAJOR IC can only be built on a territory with your flag, and an IPC of 3 of higher; and a MINOR IC can be built on ANY non-island territory with an IPC of 2 or higher.

    Almost.  A major IC may only be built on a non-island territory with your symbol printed on it and an IPC value of 3 or higher.  A minor IC may be built on any non-island territory with an IPC value of 2 or higher.



  • @author:

    Major industrial complexes are reduced minor when captured. The original owner of the territory may upgrade it if the territory is recaptured.

    Say I’m Germany. The US takes West Germany. Major IC there becomes Minor while held by the Americans. Then Germany re-takes it. Does Germany has to pay the 17ipc to upgrade the IC again? or does that happens automatically?

    btw: Paris becomes a Minor IC as soon is taken by Germany, right?



  • @Black:

    Say I’m Germany. The US takes West Germany. Major IC there becomes Minor while held by the Americans. Then Germany re-takes it. Does Germany has to pay the 17ipc to upgrade the IC again? or does that happens automatically?

    They have to pay to upgrade recaptured Minor ICs. And I think the cost is 20 IPC each.

    btw: Paris becomes a Minor IC as soon is taken by Germany, right?

    Yep.


  • Official Q&A

    @Black:

    Does Germany has to pay the 17ipc to upgrade the IC again? or does that happens automatically?

    Germany must pay.  The cost is 20 IPCs.

    @Black:

    btw: Paris becomes a Minor IC as soon is taken by Germany, right?

    Yes.


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