Is Germany at war with China? and vice versa?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    This isn’t covered in the rules.

    I would assume as Germany I can invade China, and that chinese units can attack me, but it’s not officially covered

    Any thoughts?

    Yes, this came up in a recent game.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Germany and China, had a long standing relationship,  the flip side of this coin is, Can German planes land in China, or fly over china, if not at war with China? does this constitue an act of war against China or Japan?  For all intensive purposes the German-Sino pact made them allies… is this possibility covered?

    In other words aswell, if a german division went from Nenestia to Timguska, and then into China, it would be an act of war on Japan for the soviets to follow them in there.



  • Germany and China are not allied. Germany can declare war on China at any time. Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.  China can only declare war on Germany if Germany has declared war on china/Germany has moved into a territory China can enter(everything with Chinese roundel+Burma+Kwangtung.)



  • Also, the same applies to Italy



  • My fast german armies sometimes can not take moscow in this game bit do send a couple pairs of mechs and tanks out wherever there is money to be made China and Siberia being some of the places. Thanks for the clarification I was playing right


  • Customizer

    “China” is a rather general term for this period; in fact the country was in the middle of a three-cornered civil war.  Germany had by 1940 withdrawn it’s support for the KMT faction to please Japan, so could not be considered to be allied to it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_(1911-1941)


  • Official Answers

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

    This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.



  • @Krieghund:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

    This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.

    Krieghund, I can see that if Germany enters any original Chinese tt with the Chinese symbol (although it is controlled by Jap at the time) that the Chinese could declare war on Germany (it’s their soil). Burma and Kwang are by rule  UK orig tt. Why would Germany attacking other allied forces (no Chinese) or just reinforcing Jap in these tt’s allow China to declare war on Germany. Is this just a special case to show that these were actually UK bases in the Chinese countries.

    Its not a big deal, and probably won’t matter if China can DOW to Germany over Burma, or Kwang. I was just wondering if this is the case.



  • @WILD:

    @Krieghund:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

    This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.

    Krieghund, I can see that if Germany enters any original Chinese tt with the Chinese symbol (although it is controlled by Jap at the time) that the Chinese could declare war on Germany (it’s their soil). Burma and Kwang are by rule  UK orig tt. Why would Germany attacking other allied forces (no Chinese) or just reinforcing Jap in these tt’s allow China to declare war on Germany. Is this just a special case to show that these were actually UK bases in the Chinese countries.

    Its not a big deal, and probably won’t matter if China can DOW to Germany over Burma, or Kwang. I was just wondering if this is the case.

    China may be planning to attack those territories(burma/ hong Kong) only to find out that they are reinforced by German troops. This is similar to the former loophole with Russia declaring war on japan


  • Official Answers

    Yes, and also the ally of its enemy has moved into territories in which it has an interest, which is a provocative act.



  • I was in a game where Germany pretty much took control of most of China * a very wierd game with a bunch of dumb players*.  I doubt he followed the rules right but just curious if anyone ran across this before?


  • Customizer

    In my last game, Japan had taken over all of China.  Then what troops were left went south to fight the Indians.  When Japan decided to attack Amur and turn the Mongolian troops into Soviet troops, some of them went south and liberated some Chinese territories and Japan didn’t have any land units in China to stop them.  After smashing Moscow, some German troops kept going east to take over Chinese territories.
    It is kind of weird to have Germans controlling Chinese territories.



  • So lets say the Germans are in India and the Chinese are in Burma, I have two questions

    1. Since the Germans are in Calcutta does this mean the Burma road is cut and that China no longer gets its 6IPC bonus and can no longer purchase artillery, and if that is the case, can the Chinese attack the Germans in India?

    2. If neither side (German & Chinese) has declared war on eachother, and German troops want to move in to a still free French Indo-China, could the Germans march or blitz across Burma to get there or would this be considered an attack on Chinese forces?

    Thank you in advance


  • Official Answers

    1. The Burma Road is closed, but Chinese forces can never attack India.

    2. Germany must declare war on China before attacking a Chinese-controlled or -occupied territory.



  • So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?



  • @Clyde85:

    So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?

    I think that if Japan took a Chinese territory Germany could enter it without declaring war on China.  Then if China attacked they’d only fight the Japanese forces and if they won, they’d take the territory but German forces would be there too.  I don’t know if they could stay there without declaring war.


  • Official Answers

    @Clyde85:

    So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?

    No.  Units from opposite sides can never occupy the same territory at the same time.

    @Ruanek:

    I think that if Japan took a Japanese territory Germany could enter it without declaring war on China.

    True.

    @Ruanek:

    Then if China attacked they’d only fight the Japanese forces and if they won, they’d take the territory but German forces would be there too.  I don’t know if they could stay there without declaring war.

    Not true.  That only applies in sea zones.  When you attack a territory, you attack everything in it.



  • if china has kainsu and germany attacks it, would that liberate the teritory to japan or would germany get it?


  • Official Answers

    Germany would get it.



  • WOW!   So someone really dropped the ball then when they painted those Chinese territories yellow instead of leaving them chinese and putting Japanese roundels on the territory’s at setup.  This ruling confims it if Germany can’t liberate those territories for Japan.  I sure hope in a year or two when the rules are finalized Larry lets current game owners buy a new copy of the board with updated information at a reduced cost.  That’s one of the things that is hard for us to create on our own, the little models and the big board.


  • Official Answers

    The colors indicate which power controls a territory at the beginning of the game.  The emblems indicate who the original controller of the territory is for all purposes where original ownership is relevant.  If a territory is your color, but doesn’t have your emblem, put one of your control markers on it at the start of the game.  The colors are relevant only during setup.

    Confusing?  Maybe.  However, it is consistent.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    So even though German and China were -allies- during the war,  they can only be at war or neutral during the game?  And China can’t be coerced as an independant player to thwart a SOVIET invasion?

    😞

    😞

    😞

    http://www.uglychinesecanadian.com/?p=3309  Here’s the PRESIDENT of China’s son, in uniform during training.

    Instead of an “awkward” peace deal for Russia and Japan, it should be a peace deal between China and Japan ! 😄 😄 😄



  • @Gargantua:

    So even though German and China were -allies- during the war,  they can only be at war or neutral during the game?  And China can’t be coerced as an independant player to thwart a SOVIET invasion?

    😞

    😞

    😞

    http://www.uglychinesecanadian.com/?p=3309  Here’s the PRESIDENT of China’s son, in uniform during training.

    Instead of an “awkward” peace deal for Russia and Japan, it should be a peace deal between China and Japan ! 😄 😄 😄

    Germany and China weren’t allies.  And any agreements that did exist were superseded politically by the agreement with Japan.  (Of course, German and Japan weren’t the closest of allies, either, but that’s a separate issue.)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    This is a game of alternate history, shouldn’t you be able to do whatever you want, where the rules don’t clarify any agrements?  Much like Russia and Japan? 😄 😄 😄 😄



  • @Gargantua:

    This is a game of alternate history, shouldn’t you be able to do whatever you want, where the rules don’t clarify any agrements?  Much like Russia and Japan? 😄 😄 😄 😄

    It’s a game of alternate history based on the historical situation of WWII.  It tries to be historically plausible.  And Germany choosing China as an ally over Japan isn’t plausible at all.


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