Is Germany at war with China? and vice versa?

[Krieghund]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.

[WILD BILL]

@Krieghund:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.

Krieghund, I can see that if Germany enters any original Chinese tt with the Chinese symbol (although it is controlled by Jap at the time) that the Chinese could declare war on Germany (it’s their soil). Burma and Kwang are by rule  UK orig tt. Why would Germany attacking other allied forces (no Chinese) or just reinforcing Jap in these tt’s allow China to declare war on Germany. Is this just a special case to show that these were actually UK bases in the Chinese countries.

Its not a big deal, and probably won’t matter if China can DOW to Germany over Burma, or Kwang. I was just wondering if this is the case.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@WILD:

@Krieghund:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Germany must declare war on China to enter any original Chinese territory, Burma, or Kwangtung.

This isn’t exactly correct.  Germany must declare war on China before attacking a territory controlled by China or containing Chinese units.  Moving units into territories listed above that are not controlled by China and that do not contain Chinese units does not require Germany to declare war on China, but does allow China to declare war on Germany.

Krieghund, I can see that if Germany enters any original Chinese tt with the Chinese symbol (although it is controlled by Jap at the time) that the Chinese could declare war on Germany (it’s their soil). Burma and Kwang are by rule  UK orig tt. Why would Germany attacking other allied forces (no Chinese) or just reinforcing Jap in these tt’s allow China to declare war on Germany. Is this just a special case to show that these were actually UK bases in the Chinese countries.

Its not a big deal, and probably won’t matter if China can DOW to Germany over Burma, or Kwang. I was just wondering if this is the case.

China may be planning to attack those territories(burma/ hong Kong) only to find out that they are reinforced by German troops. This is similar to the former loophole with Russia declaring war on japan

[Krieghund]

Yes, and also the ally of its enemy has moved into territories in which it has an interest, which is a provocative act.

[ahensley85]

I was in a game where Germany pretty much took control of most of China * a very wierd game with a bunch of dumb players*.  I doubt he followed the rules right but just curious if anyone ran across this before?

[knp7765]

In my last game, Japan had taken over all of China.  Then what troops were left went south to fight the Indians.  When Japan decided to attack Amur and turn the Mongolian troops into Soviet troops, some of them went south and liberated some Chinese territories and Japan didn’t have any land units in China to stop them.  After smashing Moscow, some German troops kept going east to take over Chinese territories.
It is kind of weird to have Germans controlling Chinese territories.

[Clyde85]

So lets say the Germans are in India and the Chinese are in Burma, I have two questions

1. Since the Germans are in Calcutta does this mean the Burma road is cut and that China no longer gets its 6IPC bonus and can no longer purchase artillery, and if that is the case, can the Chinese attack the Germans in India?

2. If neither side (German & Chinese) has declared war on eachother, and German troops want to move in to a still free French Indo-China, could the Germans march or blitz across Burma to get there or would this be considered an attack on Chinese forces?

Thank you in advance

[Krieghund]

1. The Burma Road is closed, but Chinese forces can never attack India.

2. Germany must declare war on China before attacking a Chinese-controlled or -occupied territory.

[Clyde85]

So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?

[Ruanek]

@Clyde85:

So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?

I think that if Japan took a Chinese territory Germany could enter it without declaring war on China.  Then if China attacked they’d only fight the Japanese forces and if they won, they’d take the territory but German forces would be there too.  I don’t know if they could stay there without declaring war.

[Krieghund]

@Clyde85:

So German land units and Chinese land units can not occupy the same space without it being considered an attack or a DOW?

No.  Units from opposite sides can never occupy the same territory at the same time.

@Ruanek:

I think that if Japan took a Japanese territory Germany could enter it without declaring war on China.

True.

@Ruanek:

Then if China attacked they’d only fight the Japanese forces and if they won, they’d take the territory but German forces would be there too.  I don’t know if they could stay there without declaring war.

Not true.  That only applies in sea zones.  When you attack a territory, you attack everything in it.

[i rock]

if china has kainsu and germany attacks it, would that liberate the teritory to japan or would germany get it?

[Krieghund]

Germany would get it.

[JimmyHat]

WOW!   So someone really dropped the ball then when they painted those Chinese territories yellow instead of leaving them chinese and putting Japanese roundels on the territory’s at setup.  This ruling confims it if Germany can’t liberate those territories for Japan.  I sure hope in a year or two when the rules are finalized Larry lets current game owners buy a new copy of the board with updated information at a reduced cost.  That’s one of the things that is hard for us to create on our own, the little models and the big board.

[Krieghund]

The colors indicate which power controls a territory at the beginning of the game.  The emblems indicate who the original controller of the territory is for all purposes where original ownership is relevant.  If a territory is your color, but doesn’t have your emblem, put one of your control markers on it at the start of the game.  The colors are relevant only during setup.

Confusing?  Maybe.  However, it is consistent.

[Gargantua]

So even though German and China were -allies- during the war,  they can only be at war or neutral during the game?  And China can’t be coerced as an independant player to thwart a SOVIET invasion?

:(

:(

:(

http://www.uglychinesecanadian.com/?p=3309  Here’s the PRESIDENT of China’s son, in uniform during training.

Instead of an “awkward” peace deal for Russia and Japan, it should be a peace deal between China and Japan ! :D :D :D

[Ruanek]

@Gargantua:

So even though German and China were -allies- during the war,  they can only be at war or neutral during the game?  And China can’t be coerced as an independant player to thwart a SOVIET invasion?

:(

:(

:(

http://www.uglychinesecanadian.com/?p=3309  Here’s the PRESIDENT of China’s son, in uniform during training.

Instead of an “awkward” peace deal for Russia and Japan, it should be a peace deal between China and Japan ! :D :D :D

Germany and China weren’t allies.  And any agreements that did exist were superseded politically by the agreement with Japan.  (Of course, German and Japan weren’t the closest of allies, either, but that’s a separate issue.)

[Gargantua]

This is a game of alternate history, shouldn’t you be able to do whatever you want, where the rules don’t clarify any agrements?  Much like Russia and Japan? :D :D :D :D

[Ruanek]

@Gargantua:

This is a game of alternate history, shouldn’t you be able to do whatever you want, where the rules don’t clarify any agrements?  Much like Russia and Japan? :D :D :D :D

It’s a game of alternate history based on the historical situation of WWII.  It tries to be historically plausible.  And Germany choosing China as an ally over Japan isn’t plausible at all.

[Clyde85]

What I dont understand is that if China and Germany start the game neutral and neither power declares war on the other, then why are they considered on oppsites sides of a conflict instead of just neutral?

I thought that the game needed an express declaration of war from one power to another in order for them to be at war, which was either spoken between the 2 powers or demonstrated through an attack by one power against the other, is this not correct?