Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW

  • '19 '17 '16

    Have many people tried a strategy as Japan where you take FIC J1 but DOW J3? vs a regular J3 DOW you have 3 more units attacking Yunnan/Shan State and possibly Malaya. I always found it worked better to take FIC J1 with a J2 DOW but have never tried it with a J3 DOW, probably mostly because I haven’t done a J3 DOW for a long time. It costs 8IPC each of J1 & J2 but what exactly would you spend that 8IPC on when not at war anyway? Putting complexes on Shantung as well as Kiangsu? Getting that FIC complex two turns earlier is worth the price for Japan IMHO.


  • The problem is that I don’t see any reason for Japan NOT to do J1 unless you want to confuse a US player who thinks they have you pegged. J1 makes the most sense for an aggressive Japan, go after Philly, Borneo, and FIC.

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    Its a net loss of money trading 10 for 2 when you cant get the other 8 until DoW. Consider, especially that if Japan waits until J3, UK should declare war on turn 2, grabbing 15 extra money for the allies.

    FIC is the best place…but the factories tend to weaken japan and India is better defended than in the past because players have learned to reallocate ANZAC planes there and otherwise ensure it wont die (persia factory early often always).

    That means that having more than 1 factory and any before turn 3 is dicey—the USA is too strong and Japan too weak. Japan feels easy to topple because players buy 1,2,3 factories then spend all the money supporting them such that a dedicated USA can blow Japan apart, J1, 2 or 3.

    So the plan you’re laying out has the disadvantages of both early DoW and late DoW–the Allies get extra money when Japan is slow to declare, and here, Japan doesn’t get more $ to compensate for that, it actually spends more, for longer…

    Just J1. Its simpler too.

  • '19 '17 '16

    I agree with your conclusion: “Just J1” but I disagree with how you’ve gotten there. Factories don’t really weaken Japan against USA - they allow more land units to be put onto Asia to defend against an aggressive USA, actually. Sure, you need to defend them but you have to choose to be strong somewhere and what’s wrong with being strong in Kiangsu and FIC? The FIC factory also helps with taking down India - tanks/mechs are only 2 turns away after they’ve been produced there, 3 turns if you count the production turn. Putting down a few more land units potentially attacking Burma J3 is a good thing for Japan. If they’re produced in Tokyo, they’re not reaching that far so soon by another method.


  • Putting a minor on FIC is necessary if Japan is going to take India since it saves one turn and gives one extra unit. Hence why J1 is so favorable because you can take FIC, Phili, and Boreno thus giving you the eight dollars vs not going to war with the US and on J2, you will have the Dutch Islands UNLESS UK and ANZAC do Fortress Java which you will have to take the Dutch Islands on J3.

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    I agree with what both of you are saying, and what I’m saying in response is that I no longer attempt to take India ASAP during KJF games, and when I’m the allies, I KJF. The factories are indeed required to take India, which I don’t consider a pat battle or a “do this every game” goal anymore with 25 US submarines staring at SZ6. India is usually well protected by fighters pulled from ME and ANZAC, that can transition to moscow once India is safe. Enough pressure from the US and Japan cant gather the huge stack on planes down south it needs to demolish india. The J1 doesn’t contain the most efficient way to attack India anyways, that requires the naval base and a J2.

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    My usual approach is to take FIC J1, the only downside being the net loss of 8 income, but to delay a DoW until J2, or even J3, but which time I have the factory ready to produce there.

    I also like a naval base to give my fleet a threat on India and peg GB back, but it is hard to find the money.

    And an air base would truly be the icing on the cake! If only ….☺

    P.S. I should add that I think that Japan is the most difficult power to play - which is likely to mean I am not very good with them!☹


  • @taamvan said in Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW:

    I agree with what both of you are saying, and what I’m saying in response is that I no longer attempt to take India ASAP during KJF games, and when I’m the allies, I KJF. The factories are indeed required to take India, which I don’t consider a pat battle or a “do this every game” goal anymore with 25 US submarines staring at SZ6. India is usually well protected by fighters pulled from ME and ANZAC, that can transition to moscow once India is safe. Enough pressure from the US and Japan cant gather the huge stack on planes down south it needs to demolish india. The J1 doesn’t contain the most efficient way to attack India anyways, that requires the naval base and a J2.

    I think the most efficient thing is to cripple India without worrying too much about taking Calcutta on J4. Sure, IF there is an opening, take it. Otherwise, a J1, J2 you can bomb Calcutta and reduce UKPac’s income to 10. J3 their income is 7.

    The materials you would use for Calcutta are usually better used finishing off China, taking/keeping the Money Islands, and keeping the U.S. in check.

    /My J1 involves Hong Kong, FiC, Borneo, Philippines, and ships grouped so that I’m unlikely to lose any navy


  • I think strategic bombing India is pointless since it is so easy for Japan to take UK territories away in that region anyways.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Caesar-Seriona said in Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW:

    I think strategic bombing India is pointless since it is so easy for Japan to take UK territories away in that region anyways.

    I’ve stopped bombing India if I do a J1 DOW. I expect it would be different if there’s a J3/US3 DOW because India will surely live on a lot longer.

    I do disagree with @weddingsinger about letting India live to fight China for 1IPC territories. I’ve tried a few different things with a J1 DOW and I reckon the optimal path starts with buying an IC for Kiangsu and 2TTs J1. It is still possible to hit India J3 with 5TTs instead of 6. This reduction in force doesn’t make or break the crush. What does make or break it is holding either Yunnan or Shan State until J3. Once India is dead, you don’t want to have a rampant China to fight. The more you have pushed them back, the fewer inf they will have built and the easier they will be to kill off.


  • I’ve never bombed India as Japan mostly because the last thing I want to do is to take a factory I just blew the hell out of. But like I said, if you J1, you can take their territories pretty fast to the point that they at best can only crank out three units. The only way UK can take advantage of a major there is if you let them take control of the Dutch Islands which as Japan, why would you do that?


  • @simon33 said in Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW:

    @Caesar-Seriona said in Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW:

    I think strategic bombing India is pointless since it is so easy for Japan to take UK territories away in that region anyways.

    I’ve stopped bombing India if I do a J1 DOW. I expect it would be different if there’s a J3/US3 DOW because India will surely live on a lot longer.

    I do disagree with @weddingsinger about letting India live to fight China for 1IPC territories. I’ve tried a few different things with a J1 DOW and I reckon the optimal path starts with buying an IC for Kiangsu and 2TTs J1. It is still possible to hit India J3 with 5TTs instead of 6. This reduction in force doesn’t make or break the crush. What does make or break it is holding either Yunnan or Shan State until J3. Once India is dead, you don’t want to have a rampant China to fight. The more you have pushed them back, the fewer inf they will have built and the easier they will be to kill off.

    The purpose of holding off on Calcutta has more to do with the U.S./ANZAC and keeping the Money Islands than it does China, though it does free you up to keep steam rolling China and even invade Russia around J4 or J5. You bomb J2, park subs off their coast J3 or so and if they’re fool enough to poke their head out, you can wipe them out, otherwise, they’re a non-factor.

    Of course, it matters what the U.S. did and whether they’re threatening you, but gutting India’s income without worrying about taking Calcutta and its 3/5 ipc, you can still preserve your entire fleet, air force, and keep jacking up your income. Something like J1 39/40 ipc; J2 57ish ipc; J3 60-65 ipc

    Buy fast movers for the mainland and carriers with a couple of destroyers later on for your fleet and the U.S.’ superior income is less of a factor (you can drop 2 planes on every 16ipc carrier you build, they need to spend 37ipc to achieve the same)

  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @weddingsinger intriguing, but what’s Japan’s endgame? India is worth 10 IPCs in your hands (5 territory + 5 NO), plus it gets you the use of a naval base. In Britain’s hands, it ties down your subs, part of your air force – so even with the money islands, you’re earning less than the usa.

    What do you do when you run out of extra aircraft to land on carriers? Is the point to just stall until Germany can win?


  • @Argothair said in Taking French Indo China without a J1 DOW:

    @weddingsinger intriguing, but what’s Japan’s endgame? India is worth 10 IPCs in your hands (5 territory + 5 NO), plus it gets you the use of a naval base. In Britain’s hands, it ties down your subs, part of your air force – so even with the money islands, you’re earning less than the usa.

    What do you do when you run out of extra aircraft to land on carriers? Is the point to just stall until Germany can win?

    IF the U.S. is going strong to the Pacific and ANZAC sent its fighters to Calcutta…

    The goal is to avoid losses on your fleet and air force as much as possible and keep them within strike range of Calcutta, SZ6, Caroline Islands, Money Islands so the U.S. can’t move against Japan and, if UKPac is turtled, you keep gobbling up income in China/Russia. (heck, you can start bombing Moscow J6 or so, if Germany is going slow). Leaving Japan’s 2 subs off Calcutta isn’t a big loss. You’ve got bombers for any unattended transports and not really anywhere else to convoy.

    With all your planes still around FiC/Kwangsi, they can join almost any fight including if India is foolish enough to send some troops out of Calcutta.

    The idea is that either the U.S. has to spend ALL its income in the Pacific, meaning Germany wins.
    If the game goes on for a bit, Japan is still building 6 fast movers a turn on the mainland so you can take Calcutta J7+ without real risk to planes or even needing your ships (or at least many) and/or keep taking Eastern Russia so that Japan can win the game for you.

    So, usually by J3 I’m at 60ish ipcs, spending 12-18 ipcs on mechs/tanks and buying 2-3 carriers a turn J3-J5. Income still goes up 2-5 ipcs a turn. J6 you’re around 70 and China is dead and you’ve probably got a U.S. fleet to deal with but you can now move on Calcutta without your navy, taking it around J7 or J8 with 9-12 extra mechs/tanks than a J4 while UKPac has barely been able to buy anything and you’ve kept the U.S. at a stalemate. Maybe you can’t take Calcutta because London or ANZAC has shuttled a bunch of fighters there, but that works for you, too, since it means they’re not somewhere else.

    If I have that sort of income, and I’ve used up the available planes to fill 6-7 carriers, giving Japan 9-10 carriers total, plus all its other starting ships, I’ll buy a round of hit soakers (if he doesn’t have many destroyers and has a lot of planes, I buy destroyers over subs)

  • '19 '17 '16

    A couple of points:

    • If you J1 DOW, it is unlikely ANZAC will have gotten all 3 of its starting fighters to India. That’s actually part of the strength of the J1 DOW.
    • It is worth losing a few planes to take India. It isn’t worth losing most of your air force.
    • Actually 8IPCs/turn for India - it’s a 3 IPC territory.
    • Also get an IC for free.
  • 2021 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @simon33 I mostly agree. I’m counting the 2 IPCs from west India, too – if you can take and hold India, you can probably also get west india.

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