Thanks for the responses…seems simple enough yet at the same time I missed it.
How often do you purchase new AAA?
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@Baron:
Perhaps keep it at 5IPC but make it roll @2 but only for up to 2 planes? Reduces the wildness of the swings it causes slightly.
I read somewhere in this forum, a long time ago that Airplanes casualty due to AA fire was 10%.
Rising AAA to 33% odds might not be agreeable to a lot of people here.
Even the 1/6 was already higher odds than historical fact.Two comments to that. Firstly, it’s a game. Shouldn’t we be talking about what makes a better one? Secondly, can’t you argue that the AAA are more densely packed than they were in history?
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@Baron:
Perhaps keep it at 5IPC but make it roll @2 but only for up to 2 planes? Reduces the wildness of the swings it causes slightly.
I read somewhere in this forum, a long time ago that Airplanes casualty due to AA fire was 10%.
Rising AAA to 33% odds might not be agreeable to a lot of people here.
Even the 1/6 was already higher odds than historical fact.Two comments to that. Firstly, it’s a game. Shouldn’t we be talking about what makes a better one? Secondly, can’t you argue that the AAA are more densely packed than they were in history?
You can keep a similar odds per AAA unit if it cost 3 and is able to shot @1 each round against up to 1 plane.
At 6 IPCs you can buy 2 AAAs, so you can roll against 2 planes. -
That would make it an extremely powerful unit in a big battle at the end of the game.
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That is the question.
1/6 to destroy a 12 IPCs = 2 IPCs damage on average or 1.667 it is a 10 IPCs Fg.
2/6 to destroy a 3 IPCs = 1 IPC damage on average.
Infantry can also attack at 2 when paired to Artillery. (1/6*3 IPC = .5 IPC + 1/2 *.5= Avg .75)
Still not considering heavier damage, 4 to 6 IPCs, on other ground units.With no offensive capacity, AAA seems to have an average defense value compared to Infantry.
It is clearly not overpowered.
And, if you have less planes than AAA number, you roll up to the number of planes attacking.The consolation is that at 3 IPCs you can sacrifice it as a cannon fodder.
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That would make it an extremely powerful unit in a big battle at the end of the game.
How many combat rounds do you have in such big battle?
5? 6 at most?A hundred and thirty units against hundred units takes on average 3.2 combat rounds.
Probably at the end of second round you would have taken all of them as casualty.
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This thread is a good example of how people can rely on the battle calculator too much. Maybe in some cases the infantry over the AAA will be a mathematical edge, but taking down an extra plane before the battle even begins is a game changer, and in many cases it’s worth the risk.
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This thread is a good example of how people can rely on the battle calculator too much.
So that’s what you guys are calling my brain these days…
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This thread is a good example of how people can rely on the battle calculator too much. Maybe in some cases the infantry over the AAA will be a mathematical edge, but taking down an extra plane before the battle even begins is a game changer, and in many cases it’s worth the risk.
Like I said.
It is the only unit which rely on gambling and psychological factor to be really interesting. -
This thread is a good example of how people can rely on the battle calculator too much.
So that’s what you guys are calling my brain these days…
Haha exactly! :lol:
100% right Baron. You made a great point
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This thread is a good example of how people can rely on the battle calculator too much. Maybe in some cases the infantry over the AAA will be a mathematical edge, but taking down an extra plane before the battle even begins is a game changer, and in many cases it’s worth the risk.
From my point of view, this thread is a good example of how an emotional bias can override hard numbers in normally clear-thinking individuals.
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@Young:
This might not help get more into the games, but a universal across the board discount on AA artillery should be in order… 4 IPCs I would say.
It was 6 until I talked to Larry about it and suggested he lower it to 5.
I thought if I proposed 4 I would be totally ignored. They should be 4, yes, but be glad they’re not 6 -
the best odds are going to be with purchasing an infantry, not an AA
This is not always correct. It is not actually very rare that optimal defense will include AAA purchase. And yes I’m talking about actually using battle calculators and looking at % chance of winning. First of all, AAA are not always firing at fighters with 3 attack value - sometimes it could be at tacs or bombers. I have had various actual in-game situations where AAA was the optimal defense purchase, and I only play about 10 games a year.
That said, I think the designer of the game made this huge change (from indestructible single AA units that have unlimited firing capability, and could change hands) without fully researching all the ramifications. For example, he merely left the cost at 6, at which cost they should almost never be purchased.
So if you want AAA to be another more common purchase option, then just houserule their cost to 4. Simple
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Or abolish built in AAA in Industrial complexes and bases as it was in classic. Or both.
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Or abolish built in AAA in Industrial complexes and bases as it was in classic. Or both.
I like this…. big change to built-in AA, not sure I like it. Nothing like a free bombing run…
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@Baron:
Do not forget that AAA have no offensive capacity.
Infantry have a way to reach up to Att @2.
AAA have only defensive and fodder purpose and it is a high cost fodder at 5 IPCs.@Baron:
@Arthur:
The circumstance comes up almost every single game: a final raid on Moscow. Usually you know that the Germans have one or two rounds to do the attack and then have to return their planes to western Europe to defend against Allied invaders. Russia must choose how to spend their final 10-15 PUs. The choice might only change the outcome by a couple percentage points, but why not take the best odds.
IMO, a unit which is only good to purchase in this particular condition should be improve to be balanced vs other units specially Infantry, since it is THE fodder unit par excellence, and AAA are meant to be use as fodder too after the initial combat round, since they have no attack value.
Also, can we really compare 2 AAAs (10 IPCs) with 1 Fighter and the tactical possibility it can generate?I know it is not suppose to become a new idea thread (but I can refrain myself :-D), what do you think about this?
If we acknowledge that AAA is to figure defensive kind of weapons which need a lot of hard work to move from one place to another, hence it only moves during Non-Combat Move phase.
What if AAA becomes also a way to simulate defensive features and fortification?Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Attack: 0
Defense: 0 or 1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, which ever the lower.
Move: 1, NCM only
Hit point value: 2, no repair needed if it survives combat
Cost 5
This means that AAA can take a free hit the same way Battleship does (or 1914 Tank does).Do you believe people will want to buy a few more of them, more often?
Can it become a way to simulate an Atlantic Wall for Germany?
Can it become a more interesting fodder? -
@Young:
This might not help get more into the games, but a universal across the board discount on AA artillery should be in order… 4 IPCs I would say.
On the other hand, I kinda always thought that to many more than what was in the setup could be unbalanced.
@Baron:
@Baron:
Do not forget that AAA have no offensive capacity.
Infantry have a way to reach up to Att @2.
AAA have only defensive and fodder purpose and it is a high cost fodder at 5 IPCs.@Baron:
@Arthur:
The circumstance comes up almost every single game: a final raid on Moscow. Usually you know that the Germans have one or two rounds to do the attack and then have to return their planes to western Europe to defend against Allied invaders. Russia must choose how to spend their final 10-15 PUs. The choice might only change the outcome by a couple percentage points, but why not take the best odds.
IMO, a unit which is only good to purchase in this particular condition should be improve to be balanced vs other units specially Infantry, since it is THE fodder unit par excellence, and AAA are meant to be use as fodder too after the initial combat round, since they have no attack value.
Also, can we really compare 2 AAAs (10 IPCs) with 1 Fighter and the tactical possibility it can generate?I know it is not suppose to become a new idea thread (but I can refrain myself :-D), what do you think about this?
If we acknowledge that AAA is to figure defensive kind of weapons which need a lot of hard work to move from one place to another, hence it only moves during Non-Combat Move phase.
What if AAA becomes also a way to simulate defensive features and fortification?Anti-Aircraft Artillery
Attack: 0
Defense: 0 or 1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, which ever the lower.
Move: 1, NCM only
Hit point value: 2, no repair needed if it survives combat
Cost 5
This means that AAA can take a free hit the same way Battleship does (or 1914 Tank does).Do you believe people will want to buy a few more of them, more often?
Can it become a way to simulate an Atlantic Wall for Germany?
Can it become a more interesting fodder?If you add the 2 hits points AAA to 4 IPCs cost, you get something when mixing with Infantry units which becomes around 55% vs 45% better than pure Infantry.
So this can be the way to make AAA really a defensive unit depicting stronger fortification and bunkers. -
@Baron:
If you add the 2 hits points AAA to 4 IPCs cost, you get something when mixing with Infantry units which becomes around 55% vs 45% better than pure Infantry.
So this can be the way to make AAA really a defensive unit depicting stronger fortification and bunkers.I could buy the “2 HPs for a free hit” factor if you were talking about Berlin’s three massive Flak towers… and we are talking about Berlin’s three massive flak towers… there were only 3 built like that anywhere in the Reich. Giving someone a free hit, especially that cheap is a big deal in the scheme of things, and you’re going to have people buying a disproportionate amount of AAA for that one reason. I don’t think it’s a good idea. Maybe give Germany a stand-alone Flak Tower unit in Germany that acts that way, but not purchasable and mass produced.
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Yeah, I think Wolfshanze is right - well put
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I still think targeting 2@2 is about the most reasonable change to AAA if we are going to make any change. Perhaps also remove the first strike aspect.
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@Baron:
If you add the 2 hits points AAA to 4 IPCs cost, you get something when mixing with Infantry units which becomes around 55% vs 45% better than pure Infantry.
So this can be the way to make AAA really a defensive unit depicting stronger fortification and bunkers.I could buy the “2 HPs for a free hit” factor if you were talking about Berlin’s three massive Flak towers… and we are talking about Berlin’s three massive flak towers… there were only 3 built like that anywhere in the Reich. Giving someone a free hit, especially that cheap is a big deal in the scheme of things, and you’re going to have people buying a disproportionate amount of AAA for that one reason. I don’t think it’s a good idea. Maybe give Germany a stand-alone Flak Tower unit in Germany that acts that way, but not purchasable and mass produced.
In fact, having too much AAA (even at 4 IPCs) with only a few Infantry is sub-optimal. (Like having a lot of Transport, doesn’t increase the defense factor in Naval combat.)
The ratio is around 3 AAA with 8 Infantry to be a better defense than 12 Infantry. (55% vs 45% odds of survival) an avg increase of 10% only.So a 4 IPCs 2 hits AAA is not that OP.
Also, be imaginative, such 2 hits unit is now able to depict Atlantic Wall, Maginot Line, Siegfried Line or Gustav Line.
Infantry is not a purely defensive unit but AAA is.
Giving a slightly better odd than pure Infantry defense seems not that OP.
Remember, with AAA only ground units it is auto-destroyMy point is to try 2 hits AAA at 5 IPCs. No big change.
Infantry remains best in that case.
Maybe auto-repair increase the unit value enough.
That way, it still can be an incentive to defend Normandy instead of fleeing to Paris waiting to counter attack.
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