G40 Balance Variant - Latest Version

[regularkid]

@Baron:

But, on the counter-part, attacker would not dare to launch an SBR when he had the same number of StBs than defending Fgs.
Why risk to lose a 12 IPCs unit? Which have to pass through D2 + AAA D1 = near 3/6, 50% of being destroyed.
So, you get less SBR than OOB. Remember, there is always something else to do in regular combat with an A4 bomber.
On SBR, 4 StBs vs 4 Fgs, with A2 D2 Fg your net loose on avg. near 11 IPCs more than defender.
OOB, it is the defender which loose near 8 IPCs more than attacker.

Baron, with all due respect and affection, your theories don’t stand up to experience. As I’ve already said,  strategic bombings happen very often in games that use the 2 attack and defend for air raids. Repeating your theoretical assertions to the contrary doesn’t change that simple fact. Also, intercepts seem to happen more often. It isn’t even a close question. The air raid rules work great as they are.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here an example of what can be done to balance things between these two extremes, Fg A1 D1 (attacker bias) Fg A2 D2 (defender bias):
@ItIsILeClerc:

What I would find a decent way to prevent the historic abberation and also to not affect current gameplay too much, is if attacking bombers (TAC/STR) would work the same as defending AA-guns.
Meaning that bombers just never have more dice to roll than there are interceptors. That way, if the raiders want to play an effective economic game, they MUST send a decent amount of FTR along with the bombers.
Historic rationale: bombers do not actively scour the skies for intercepting FTR, but they will fire in defense if attacked.

Another thing I would be happy about, is if FTR escort/intercept@2 instead of just 1, like bombers. No need to explain that one. But I think this is less important than limited dice for bombers.

Some examples that are very likely to occur in real games:
1. Incoming raid consists of 12STR, intercepted by 3FTR. Raiders fire 3@1, interceptors fire 3@2.
2. Same as above, but now incoming raid consists of 12STR + 3 escorts. Raiders fire 3@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 3@2.
3. Same as 2nd example, now with 3 additional interceptors. Raiders fire 6@1 + 3@2, interceptors fire 6@2.
4. 30STR raiding, 12FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 12@1, interceptors fire 12@2.
5. Last example: 7STR + 5FTR escorts, 12 FTR intercepts. Raiders fire 7@1 + 5@2, interceptors fire 12@2.

I think above examples perfectly illustrate that in such a system, bombers should usually not raid without enough escorts. FTR could even be given their normal combat values (i.e. @3 for escorts, @4 for interceptors), but that could be too bloody for game balance…

Another reason which goes against Fg D2 is that it has been play-tested during alpha rules development and Larry dropped it for OOB SBR G40.2. He wanted more SBRs. IDK if rising Fg attack to @2 changes a lot of things.

If you want to convince people outside your circle it is the best change, please provides some situations which occur in your games with this A2 D2 rule.
It will help see if it is cautious or daring kind of play or optimized one.
I’m not against it in principles, but it changes radically the odds compared to OOB SBR from maths POV. This I know for sure.
Also, I know that Larry provides an official SBR rule with fighter D2 in 1942.2.
And when adapted to G40 by giving @1 first strike to bomber Dam D6+2 but A2 D2 to Fg, it is more balanced when StBs are against Fgs only.

[baron Münchhausen]

Besides, does your Triple A version included the SBR with A2 D2 Fg?

[baron Münchhausen]

@regularkid:

Baron, with all due respect and affection, your theories don’t stand up to experience. As I’ve already said,  strategic bombings happen very often in games that use the 2 attack and defend for air raids. Repeating your theoretical assertions to the contrary doesn’t change that simple fact. Also, intercepts seem to happen more often. It isn’t even a close question. The air raid rules work great as they are.

The table was provided for at hand reference. It was not an argument ad repetitum.

From the table, it also make sense that there is more interceptions.
Fg A2 D2 is bias in favor of interceptions with less raids while OOB is bias against any interception with more SBRs.

Also, maybe another point is that more and more people believe that StBs are too powerful in regular combat against Naval, with a long range of power projection.
Limiting their capacity in SBR with stronger Fg, can make for an overall more balanced unit.
So, in SBR A2 D2 Fg is OP vs A1 bombers, but it balanced things out against an OP StBs A4 M6+1.

[regularkid]

Yes, its included in the TripleA file.

I’ve played the mod with many different people on TripleA. And so have others. Of all the changes, the air-raid rules are perhaps the least controversial. Frankly, nobody has really seemed to need convincing about that. For me, practical experience reveals more than a bunch of tables. I’ve already told you what my experience has been. Your tables don’t change that. If you’d like to play a game, lets do so. Otherwise lets just agree to disagree :)

[baron Münchhausen]

@regularkid:

Yes, its included in the TripleA file.

I’ve played the mod with many different people on TripleA. And so have others. Of all the changes, the air-raid rules are perhaps the least controversial. Frankly, nobody has really seemed to need convincing about that. For me, practical experience reveals more than a bunch of tables. I’ve already told you what my experience has been. Your tables don’t change that. If you’d like to play a game, lets do so. Otherwise lets just agree to disagree :)

It is a good news.
It should be included in the Revised project.
From my POV, it is one step in the good direction.
I would need more adjustments to really fix SBR but it would be harder to touch Triple A codes on that matter.
My tables are only analysis tools.
They help compares different methods and SBR parameters.
They reveal comparison points with OOB SBRs method. And can say which is more generous or not for attacker.
And give the breaking point ratio when it is better for attacker or defender to SBR or intercept.

At least, there is more interception with A2 D2 Fg.
And, when there is no Fg on IC, SBR rate remains the same.
However, when a few Fgs are present on IC, attacker must wait until he gets at least 1 more StB above the 1:1 ratio. That was not the case OOB.
Or the attacker keep 1:1 ratio with 1 StB and 1 Fg escorting paired against 2 Fgs interceptors.
To get + 0.4 IPCs /raid for each paired StB+Fg.

Here is an example with enough details to understand the situation on Eastern front:
@knp7765:

I agree with you wittmann. I rarely use interceptors as I have found it to be a waste of fighters. Too often I see those attacking bombers get that lucky “1” and blasting my defending fighters out of the sky. In fact, I still remember one game where Germany sent in 4 bombers to SBR Moscow. Russia had 5 fighters so we said “Let’s intercept”. The Russian fighters got 1 bomber while Germany knocked out 3 Russian fighters! I can’t help but think those extra 4 rollers could have made a difference in the battle for Moscow a couple of rounds later.

Clearly, this can no more happen in a A2 D2 Fg rule, unless the attacker is a daredevil.
4 StBs A1 against 5 Fgs D2 is suicidal.
Around -5.6 IPCs for the raid.
OOB: + 0.4 IPCs for the raid.
So, this is a deterrent to SBR Russia.
Differencial of minus 6 IPCs compared to OOB SBR against the attacker.

Can you provides some details on experiments made about first rounds actions between UK and Germany?
Does Sea-Lion can be preceded by SBR (as OOB) or not?
OOB, UK is better to keep Fgs on ground, so no intercept.
In theory, A2 D2 Fg would forbid SBR on UK, on optimized play.

May you give some details like Knp did?
That way, it will not be just a matter of belief and subjectivism but can rely on real play-tested factual situations. So, everyone can judge for himself.

[regularkid]

No, I can’t and won’t provide examples. Like I said, if you want examples, lets play a game. Otherwise agree to disagree.

[baron Münchhausen]

@regularkid:

No, I can’t and won’t provide examples. Like I said, if you want examples, lets play a game. Otherwise agree to disagree.

I can’t agree to disagree.
Why?
I have doubt.
Your fix is simple (and fit with my Fg A2 D2 M4 C6, which hit aircraft first in regular combat), but if Larry rejected it, there is probably something that matter, IDK.

Also, I can’t convinced my fellow bodies which I play on board game only by just saying Regularkid, have a lot of experience and you should believe him.
If you don’t remember specific situation so you cannot bring details, that’s OK.
I can wait till you or Barney or anyone else can bring some interesting cases to analyze.

[variance]

Guys, the real meat of this mod is not the SBR rules (which are fine).  The NOs have been very carefully thought out and are excellent.  If played to maximum effect they will make the game far more historical and much better to play.  Plus we get the marines units!

Games with these rules should be faster and more skillful.  The axis side will have to go HARD in Russia and the Pacific in order to maximize their position before the allies inevitably start earning big NO money, exactly how the game should be. Just look at the implications of those NOs for Japan and the USA grabbing islands for instance - that alone should make an enormous difference in axis strategy.  And those mediterranean islands NOs are absolutely great.

There may yet be a few details to iron out, but this mod has tremendous potential and I hope you will give it a chance.

G40 Balance Mod (Vichy and Marines and ANZAC Bonus).tsvg

[regularkid]

thanks bro. appreciate the positive review. much work went into it :)

[Jennifer]

So USA finally loses that stupid 10 IPC for not being invaded NO?  The one that was almost never lost?

Was there any changes to initial placement, or is the hope (experience) that NO changes alone balances the game?  (I havnt played it, downloaded it, just havnt actually looked in depth yet and it’s 2338 hours here, so not gunna look at it tonight.)

[regularkid]

Hey Cmdr:

No, all the original NOs are still in the game (including the USA one). A few have been modified slightly (e.g., “spread of communism” NO only applies to mainland europe now), but for the most part, the NOs are simply in addition to whats already there.

Here is the most recent version of the Mod (its been a while since I’ve checked this thread). Its now in its final form :) enjoy!

G40 Balance Mod.tsvg

[Shin-Ji]

3 PUs for each originally German, Italian, or Pro-Axis neutral territory that Russia controls in mainland Europe. (This modifies Russia’s “Spread of Communism” objective).

I just want to double check, this would not include any of the islands like Sardinia, right?

[Shin-Ji]

Also, I’m still wrapping my head around the Vichy France rules.  It would seem that this is a choice the Axis makes, primarily.  Only thing the Allies could do to stop it would be to land a plane in Southern France on UK1.  But it seems to benefit the Allies more than the Axis - the Allies can now get all that income from the French African territories, while the Axis only stands to gain about 5 Inf total, right?

And what happens to the French navy that isn’t in z93?  They stay Free French?

[regularkid]

Yes, it’s the Axis player’s choice to make, in the first instance. Allies can do a few things to try to stop or mitigate it: (i) liberate and hold Normandy until France’s turn; (ii) put UK units in Southern France; (iii) but UK or US units in French territories that Allies don’t want to turn Vichy.

Simply putting a plane in Southern France probably wouldn’t be sufficient to stop it since Italy could simply attack with an inf, and its 3 planes. If it clears the territory of units without taking it, Vichy France will still happen on France’s turn.

Whether and to what extent it benefits Axis depends, of course, on whats happening on the board. In addition to the pro-axis infantry, Axis gets a free hand on Italy’s turn to do things other than deal with the French. Its gets a defensive fleet in sz 93, which, when coupled with a destroyer in 95, can serve as a handy blocker (not to mention a deterrence to allied landings in Southern France). The Vichy arrangement also potentially denies Allies a landing spot in Africa, since all the territories that planes could reach from the UK would go Vichy (unless UK takes steps to prevent this).

No, the French ships by Madagascar and the English channel do not turn Vichy.

Really the best way to get your mind around the Vichy France thing is to play. Up for a game?

[Jennifer]

@Shin:

3 PUs for each originally German, Italian, or Pro-Axis neutral territory that Russia controls in mainland Europe. (This modifies Russia’s “Spread of Communism” objective).

I just want to double check, this would not include any of the islands like Sardinia, right?

That’s how I read it, so if you’re wrong, we both are!  :evil:

[Shin-Ji]

I checked, and taking Sardinia doesn’t trigger the boost in TripleA, at least.

I’ve started a few games (as Allies, so far), but still have no idea how the VIchy thing affects the game since my opponents always attack Southern France.  Seems like the Axis really have to go out of their way to make it happen.

[regularkid]

yup, mainland europe excludes islands.

[Jennifer]

@Shin:

I checked, and taking Sardinia doesn’t trigger the boost in TripleA, at least.

I’ve started a few games (as Allies, so far), but still have no idea how the VIchy thing affects the game since my opponents always attack Southern France.  Seems like the Axis really have to go out of their way to make it happen.

I was thinking the same. To ensure S. France doesn’t fall, Germany would have to dedicate planes to clearing it (unless you wanted to risk Italian planes) without any ground forces.  Seems like the risk outweighs the reward…but that’s just my untested, unplayed, opinion!

[Shin-Ji]

I could see setting up Vichy so that the Italians could invade Southern France in I2 - it essentially saves them the trouble of killing that fleet, and denies it to the Allies.  As an added bonus, you destroy a few French Inf around the board too.

Still, dangerous to take forces away from the France fight to take Normandy, and extremely tricky to take Normandy with the Italians.