No
The Gibraltar Lockdown -and what can the allies do about it?!
-
I think you missinterpret something here ItIsILeClerc.
The problem for the Axis player is, if UK player skips Taranto (UK1) because G-player lost many Airunits (G1) and swings over to sz 92. What are you going to do as Axis players?
Of course IT is able to strike down the RN in sz 92 (IT1) without FTR airpower)) but will be left as an easy pick up for France (F1) navy.
Round 2:
Germany could positioning it self before the Rock but needs at least one or two more TRS to invade the Rock.
We remeber G1 purchase of 1x DD,1xSS and 1x Aircarrier.
So Round 2 is not much an invasion option for Germany with only 1 TT, if UK of course reinforced the Rock correct with 1xInf and 1xMech Inf. from London and 1xInf and 1xAA from Malta and one or two FTRs on UK1.UK2: we remeber the IT TT’s and trying now to take them out as much as possible if they survived in Round 1 because IT-player choosed do use’em somewhere else (Reinforcing N-Africa).
If the TT’s were used in the amphibiuos assault on the Rock then skip this step(they are gone).
(The possibilty could exist that the amph-assault was successful and IT-player owns the rock, but the odds are:
ITALY: 2xArm + 2xInf no Air vs UK 2xInf. +1x Mech.Inf+1xAA plus 1-2FTRs.
We reinforce Egypt with an DD from S-Africa and an additional DD and Cruiser from India we have been sending that way. The Suez-channel is locked!IT2: Italy has no Navy only Airpower wich cannot reach the Rock and is only able to go for Egypt straight forward.
Thoughts to this!?
-
I’m not sure where you think the misinterpretation happened aequitas, but I must admit I am having a little trouble understanding what allied course of actions you are advocating in your post (no offense, just blame it on my weak DNA ;-)). Let me try to summarize it for myself, to better understand what you were saying.
Do you mean that you see both the Taranto and the Non-Taranto (where the units from malta + SZ98 all directly go into The Rock) options as valid?
In that case there is no misinterpretation as far as I am concerned. Fully agree with that.So far, the only thing I’ll keep advocating is to stack units in Gibraltar, even with an UK1 ‘Taranto’. And still, this is just my own line of thought atm because I see how effectively the Axis can Lock that Rock down if Germany is allowed to land there early (as opposed to invading). I am also still convinced that IF the Axis can get a decent amount of land units + all their remaining air and their fleets in Gibraltar (in the worst case they can get 6 land units in plus 12-13 planes), the prolonged unhindered production this gives them will offset the absence of the Luftwaffe in Russia after a while. It can be troublesome at first but there’s no way Russia can match 15-20 Axis reinforcements per turn in the long run.
So perhaps the most important questions should be:
A). can the allies effectively bypass Gibraltar if they can’t retake it very quickly (IF they lost it in the first place)?
B). (In the line of knp7765’s thoughts), can the USA afford it to spend 3 complete turns on Europe without getting into too much trouble defending/retaking Waikiki?
These are the question where my real pain and/or lack of experience lies! -
What would be your next move?
(Don’t mind the Europe map please, since the Pac. is not really any close to this scenario. Thank you)
sidenote: I really enjoy reading most of your post, i just think in this case we may talk in two diffrent directions ItIsILeClerc :-)
-
Thanks aequitas, much appreciated!
Really love the save file :-).
I have already come to the conclusion that #98->Gibraltar is a good move to make if Germany builds a fleet. Same goes for ‘Taranto’. I moved the axis in your save file to further proove this statement and to honor the name of that file ;-).
The shameful truth (for me) is that I often make this very move (if I am not strafing Alexandria), but I obviously failed to make it my ‘standard move’ if Germany builds up a fleet GE1…For me, the final conclusion would be that the allies can perfectly well prevent the fall of Gibraltar and that my latest questions A and B therefore don’t need answering at all. Although experiences with such a situations are Always welcome to learn.
The axis on the other hand, would be wise to not pursue Gibraltar if they see Italy cannot take it (Luftwaffe cannot land there and the Kriegsmarine ends up on the wrong side of The Rock). Better to let go of it and start focusing more on Egypt or other targets. I hope my moves in your file also prooved that.In general, I think that:
Germany loosing a lot (or even, some) of aircraft without being able to keep Gibraltar in its basket is bad news for the Axis. Given that the USA is not ignoring Europe and is building up an invasion threat. The allies however, best realize that they need to stay in control of Gibraltar. Unless, ofc, Japan is not putting up any pressure on Honolulu/Sydney at all, allowing the USA to focus on Europe for 3 complete turns or even more.Note that UK1 can fly even more FTR into The Rock (perhaps even all of them). IF Germany would fall back into building a lot of TRS GE2, all or some of those FTR can fly back into London. But it’s optional.
-
Outstanding, now we are on the same page :-D.
I even went a little further on your turn ItIsILeClerc that you posted, see below 2.1.
(and of course everybody who is interested in it)
UK successfully depleted IT Navy and is able to hold the Rock.Now, I also used the same starting setup for a diffrent alternative ending, to show the risk wich comes with it.
(see attachment alternative)
IT 2 can be used as a Canopener to allready defeat the French ships and to prepare landing zones in N.-Africa wich allows German Air units to land after combat.
BUT again: Only if the German Luftwaffe is still strong in numbers and able to reachout to sz92.Meeting at the Rock with all UK ships in the Meds is a very strong move. It allows to controll IT movements there and lures German Luftwaffe maybe into combat for the price of maybe all UK ships and is weakening German Luftwaffe in strenght as well. In my opinion a good alternative for doing a Taranto instead. Just not recomended to perform allways, it depends on numbers of German Luftwaffe G1 and IT as a canopener.
Gibraltar plott.2.1tsvg.tsvg
Gibraltar plott alternative.tsvg -
Bismarck is kept alive using the strafe tactic on SZ111.
Could you explain this? If you retreat to keep the Bismarck alive wouldn’t you also leave the Hood alive as well?
-
lol
-
Absolutely right, Ike!
This will more often than not be the case. In one of my testings I even ended with the Hood AND the CA as survivors. Lucky dicers!
I guess it is a matter of preference because GE1 it is choosing between two evils: Loosing the Bismarck has its evils, keeping it alive has downsides as well, as you stated. Keeping it alive provides more safety for the kriegsmarine in the short term.@aequitas: I am currently unable to look at your attachments (no time and no tripleA on this tablet) but I will asap :-). Thanks again for the effort!
-
Thanks LeClerc. Just checking if I was missing something! Sorry to interrupt.
-
I have to say that with the German naval build described in the opening statement, and strafing the German BB (all German ships in sz112 defended w/air base) the UK will most likely not scramble and turtle adding inf/air to London (can’t see them scrambling or making luxury buys UK1). It has become pretty standard to build some defense for London w/German naval builds. The UK would have the option of attacking the German fleet though (odds not too good for UK).
If UK does Taranto, it weakens the Italians effort to take/supply the Rock, but it would also cost the UK the Med fleet so they would be hard pressed to defend or retake it if lost. Assuming the Germans left sz109 alone (DD and transport) the UK could do Taranto and still place 2-4 ground units on the Rock and some ftrs probably sacrificing 1-2 transports (could be more if the Canadian transport survives). Also placing the 109 DD in sz 92 would stop Italian bombardment leaving them only one loaded transport and no air to invade Gib (not likely to happen IMO). So Italy’s job would be to kill off the sz93 French fleet (so they can’t move to sz104 to block out the Germans), and take out any UK blockers that might be in SZs 110 or 104). They will also want to take Algeria to allow the German bmrs a landing place. The UK may have dropped 2 units and air in Algeria w/French inf but Italy has the air power to take it IMO (but do they have enough to take out French fleet and a defended Algeria?). If the Germans have a clear shot at Gib from sz112 they could amphib w/a couple ground units 2 bmrs and ftr/tac stationed in Rome (land on carrier). So they will probably get it depending on where the UK beefs up defenses. How many units do they have defending the Rock, vs what is defending Algeria? If the Germans do take Gib, the Luftwaffe can’t land there, but I don’t think the UK will be in a position to take it back yet.
No Taranto, but kill Ita sz96, move all available UK ships to sz92 (leave blocker in sz 94, w/French fleet in sz93 effectively blocking out the Italians from Gib this turn). Also transport up to 4 UK ground units to Gib w/air (including the French ftr). This would probably stop the Germans from invading the Rock from the Atlantic as well because of the Med fleet on the other side in sz92 (if they don’t get it Kriegsmarine is toast). The axis could try a double air sweep of the UK sz92 fleet though by again having Italy clear Algeria giving the Luftwaffe a landing place. It would take a toll on the axis air power though.
Anyway I think that if the UK decides to fight for the Rock, even if they lose it, the Axis could be drained just in time for round 2 vs USA
What happens if the US/UK goes Spain?
-
@IKE:
Thanks LeClerc. Just checking if I was missing something! Sorry to interrupt.
Yw Ike. And you weren’t interrupting as far as I am concerned ^^.
What happens if the US/UK goes Spain?
Good question, considering a strong Axis presence in Gibraltar with some minor units in Normandy + SF.
-
Then Axis players are going to sack all neutrals.
Sweden,Turkey,Saudi Arabia, etc, etc… -
Portugal and a strategically placed NB will allow the US TT rotation to continue without having to confront the combined Axis Gib lockdown.
Granted you need to land in force if you give the Axis Spain and they have a slew of aircraft to fly over the 6 free Inf they’ll get from Spain.
However, it does force the Axis to spend on placing units in Normandy and S.France going forward.
You also give up access (in the short term) to Italy by sea, but I have a feeling if you just circumvent Gib the Axis are going to be less inclined to dumping or keeping their resources in Gib.
-
Interesting thought, Spendo02.
-
The more I look at it, I’d wonder what the Axis would do if the Allies mass up in SZ104 and land on Portugal.
My first reaction as Germany would be to liberate Spain. But the more I look at it, if all my Axis navy is caught in Gib, with 3 Allied CV with Ftr in SZ104 I’d be rather nervous about what is going to happen to WGr going forward.
Do I attack the Allied fleet in SZ104?
Would that mean sacrificing a significant portion of aircraft/Navy to accomplish it?
All those Ftr / Tac cannot reach WGr without an AB in Gib.
I cannot build enough of a Navy to repel the Allies landing on WGr AND enough ground units to repel an Allied AA landing on WGr.
Do I build a DD and place it in Normandy as a blocker?
I may have to give up WGr with a move like this, make it expense to take, and hope I have enough units in France / Berlin / Northern Italy to snuff the Allies out before they can establish themselves.Its a risky proposition by the Allies, you could lose all your Naval hardware in SZ104, but it sure puts Germany in one hell of a predicament if they cannot sink your Navy there.
Thoughts?
-
A quick calculation of numbers tells me the allies will loose all their naval hardware (including 4 units USAF). Italy, used as can opener, will loose all its naval and air assets as well and Germany will be left with 7 units in its Luftwaffe.
But let’s say the allies can have a stronger fleet for some reasons (perhaps Japan doesn’t threaten Hawai at all and the USA can transfer some warships from the pacific into Europe…). Then, it rather depends on how much force I’d have left as Axis.
Let’s say the UK didn’t do much to stop the Axis from taking The Rock (might even do that deliberately if the USA has good options to bypass Gibraltar).
Also let’s assume the USA has put a real investment (all IPCs from turns 1&2) into Europe first few turns and has at its disposal 7 fully loaded TRS, 3CV(1 from UK), 5FTR+1TAC (2FTR from UK), 1STR. This includes some hocus pocus with elements of the Pacific fleet (TRS) as long as Hawai can be kept safe. The UK should be able to deliver 6FTR as well for defenses after the USA lands somewhere.Some German Options as far as I can brainstorm them:
OPTION1 -Defend WGr with 10 newly produced units + the luftwaffe + AAA and INF/ART still around from game start. This means giving up Gibraltar but keeps a flow of reinforements into Russia for 1 more turn and opens up some interesting strategic options in Africa/Med/South America for the kriegsmarine. Also in Spain, liberating it just because you can, not necessarily to keep it.OPTION2 -Defend WGr with 10 Newly produced units + 10 already there (originally put there to race into Russia) + those AAA and INF/ART still there from game start.
For this option Japan must pressure the USA into spending a lot in the Pac from turn 3 and onwards. This means holding on to Gibraltar (reinforcing it some more) and setting up strong counter attack options everywhere. Maybe not strong enough to counter a determined allied ‘liberation’ of Spain but that is a close call for both sides…
While this keeps Gibraltar in the Axis basket for longer I’m not certain what other strategic options this may give to the axis -apart from being stro in the west, as this hurts its position against Russia.Option 2 seems to be the less attractive one (as far as offensive actions) but I’m not so sure in the long run.
IF the Axis can hold on to Gibraltar for a long time (as said, Japan must pressure Hawai to enforce no further US focus on Europe), which maintains threats into Africa/South America and keeps Italy producing strong for long. Russia will be less threatened but I find it hard to see where this is going. Experience needed ;-). I’d say it’s a difficult position for both sides and thus worth a try.On a sidenote,
I’ve given some more thought to what knp said: attack Gibraltar US4 with a load of TRS, eating away German Luftwaffe. This works well if the allies can get into Gibraltar with a fully loaded ~8TRS and this seems to be possible only after a ‘Taranto’ UK1. Just as knp said. Otherwise the combined German and Italian fleets in SZ91 are too strong to overcome. With an Italian CV built, even the Kriegsmarine alone is a close call to get rid of. So as far as I’m concerned the allies really need to do their math (enough TRS to kill enough Luftwaffe + enough warships to get through in case the Kriegsmarine blocks + keeping Hawai safe) on this one but it defenately works once they get the balance of their forces right :-). -
Give Spain to Germany? I can’t believe I’m reading this. If you give Germany those 6 inf in Spain your also giving them 6 inf in Sweden and 8 inf in Turkey. That’s 14 more inf heading to Russia. That’s really going to tip the favor of the axis in units over Russia. Germany can probably build more ships and still be ahead of Russia in units.
Even if you reverse this and have Germany attack Spain its not in the allies favor. By doing this you allow Italy to take Gib without ships. Combine that with no ships in the Med and Italy get +10 for NO which will place their economy around 25-30. This was the background to my “Angry Bird” strategy which basically had the axis eliminate the 3 big neutrals on turn 2-3 to prevent the allies from taking those units. It places the axis in a great positional advantage.
-
Hmmm, I tend to agree with Cyanight on this.
To make matters worse, add the possibility of the axis aligning all/most of South America from here (they’re still in control of the Gibraltar ports), except Brazil, which needs to be attacked… I know America is close by but The USA might be too busy staying in control of Hawai to do something about it.However, I do see the advantage of doing this if the situation is right. Remember it is turn 3/4 and apart from Spain (if the allies didn’t attack there but Portugal instead), the Axis may be in a very bad position to start aligning all the now Axis-friendly neutrals. With the entire Kriegsmarine in the med, the Luftwaffe at Gibraltar and the Wehrmacht in Russia already (including the Finns), this allied plot may come as a complete surprise. Germany/Italy may simply have no units around to activate Sweden & Turkey and may be kicked out of Spain immediately after aligning it.
I think it is possible to pull it off with the allies but it is highly situational and should not be considered lightly. Much like liberating Paris too soon, when German reinforcements will force the allies to abandon Paris (retreating into Normandy again, which can be reinforced better), then take it, looting it again and repeat this if the allies make the mistake once more…I really start wondering if the allies have options in this scenario, other than preventing the fall of Gibraltar or retaking it. Maybe some of us need to make another ‘TripleA study’ of the latter, staging the fall of Gibraltar IT1 (after ‘Taranto’), massing the Axis at The Rock and then see if the USA is able to ratake whilst keeping japan out of Hawai as well!
-
If one side is better prepared to DOW the neutrals, it’s usually going to be the allies. Axis are usually isolated from the neutrals in S. America, Africa, and ME/Afghanistan and usually can’t activate them. Which leaves Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, and Swiss to consider for the allies.
If you’re going to attack the neutrals as the allies, you need to do all you can to remove as many as possible that the axis could reach. Usually this means US landings in Spain while UK takes out Turkey. Leaving those units for the axis simply give them too many units to activate and swell their fodder stack. Turkey gives axis a path to the bonus money in the ME and Spain guards Gibraltar.
-
Um, you do realize both Turkey and Swedish units are 5+ turns from reaching Moscow? I’d only be worried about those Inf in Turkey marching on Egypt if / when Moscow falls.
Suppose you take Portugal on US4.
That means assuming Germany is even in position, it is a G5 activation, so:G5 Activate Turkey, G6 Caucasus, G7 Rostov, G8 Bryansk, G9 Moscow. And that assumes Germany has a single unit next to Turkey ending G4. Chances of that happening are pretty slim from everything I’ve seen Germany use as a strategy.
Sweden is a possibility on G4 of having the Fins sitting next to it, but isn’t Sweden part of the German NO that Sweden remains neutral? I’m not sure I’d trade the NO for the Inf as assuming the same scenario above, a Allied R4 neutral move means:
G5 Activate Sweden, G6 Finland, G7 Karelia, G8 Novgorod, G9 Belarus, G10 Smolensk, G11 MoscowIn short, I could care less about giving Germany slow moving infantry so far from just about everything but maybe reinforcing Norway (once) and potentially bolstering a post fall of Moscow advance on Egypt.
Switzerland is irrelevant with simply 2 Inf and no IPC value.
I think you all make a bigger deal out of handing the Germans Sweden and Turkey than needs to be made. My only concern would be Spain’s 6 Inf with a full contingent of aircraft strafing the Allied stacks in Portugal. Which, is why I made sure to be clear your stack could absorb the hit and still pose a threat to land on WGr or march on Gib itself.
Assuming you can muster a sea defense, I probably wouldn’t put anything less than 25-30 units there to deter the Germans from strafing it at all. There’s a distinct possibility you could cut heavily into their aircraft with a good roll as statistically speaking the average roll should net you 10 units, 6 being Inf, 4 being aircraft. A good defensive roll and you could cripple the air force making the Axis scuttle Gib and hide behind it in the Med and all in all ruining their plans as they run back to Rome and then Berlin.
Suggested Topics
