Night Bombing SBR. All HRs, NAs, Techs, and custom sculpt ideas welcome

[toblerone77]

This may have been addressed before, but I have always liked the idea of night bombing in A&A. My suggestion would be that is conducted in a similar way to regular SBR raids with these exceptions.

1. The attacker declares their SBR and that they intend to bomb at night.

2. The defender can choose to intercept, however they must use their bombers only. Many bombers in WWII were built as night fighters. This could apply to TBs but I leave that up to the players. 3. All aircraft will attack and defend at 1. No interception escort rules apply.

4. Attacking bombers roll and the defender removes casualties behind the casualty line. 5. Defender rolls. 6. All casualties are removed. 7. Defending AA fires. Casualties are halved rounded-up or down*, to simulate the difficulty of spotting targets at night. *Player’s preference.

8. Surviving bombers then roll for damage. The result is halved and rounded-up or down* due to the difficulty of night bombing. *Player’s preference.

I have revised this HR for simplicity. It essentially applied as any SBR except that there are no escorts or interceptors. The attack is only applicable to ICs and results from AA fire and damage results are halved and rounded up or down per player’s/play group’s preference.

Note: An option to use a D12 die or dice for AA fire maybe used instead of halving the number of hits. Example: 1@D12=.5@D6 essentially lowing their defense score by half so all rolls of 1@D12 considered a hit and all hits are counted instead of using the D6 mechanic.

[CWO Marc]

Interesting concept.  I haven’t studied it in detail, but just as a general comment I think that an important consideration would be to make sure that the combat values correctly reflect the fact that, for most of the war, night-time strategic bombing was highly inaccurate.  Despite the impression that wartime propaganda films like Target For Tonight tried to create, the only target which the RAF could hope to hit at night with any degree of confidence was something the size of an entire city.  The circular error probabilty of a WWII night-time bomb drop was, at best, on the order of several miles, so the scene in TFT which shows RAF bombers deliberately demolishing a German railway yard with bomb after bomb is pure fantasy.

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

Interesting concept.  I haven’t studied it in detail, but just as a general comment I think that an important consideration would be to make sure that the combat values correctly reflect the fact that, for most of the war, night-time strategic bombing was highly inaccurate.  Despite the impression that wartime propaganda films like Target For Tonight tried to create, the only target which the RAF could hope to hit at night with any degree of confidence was something the size of an entire city.  The circular error probabilty of a WWII night-time bomb drop was, at best, on the order of several miles, so the scene in TFT which shows RAF bombers deliberately demolishing a German railway yard with bomb after bomb is pure fantasy.Â

Good points Marc. I didn’t really post that the targets should be limited to ICs but I think they should. Secondly I’m not totally sure how to set the stats for this HR to reflect the ineffectiveness of night bombing. I still would like to try it out. As always, good post!

[CWO Marc]

@toblerone77:

Good points Marc. I didn’t really post that the targets should be limited to ICs but I think they should. Secondly I’m not totally sure how to set the stats for this HR to reflect the ineffectiveness of night bombing. I still would like to try it out. As always, good post!

As a potential source of ideas, I recommend having a look at the chapter on strategic bombing in Richard Overy’s book Why The Allies Won.  He makes interesting points about the objectives and effects of the Allied SB campaign, notably about how one of its effects was to draw considerable German resources into the defense of German airspace and away from other fronts and uses.  He notes that, even though SB is often thought of in terms of in asymmetrical terms (Allied bombers dropping bombs on helpless civilians and static factories), each SB mission was actually a military confrontation involving combat between the attacking Allied bombers (and, where applicable, their fighter escorts) and the defending German fighters and AAA batteries.  He also argues that the demands created on Germany by the Allied SB campaign resulted in a distortion of German aircraft production priorities, as Germany began producing more and more fighters for home defense at the expense of producing fewer and fewer bombers for offensive action on the Eastern Front.

[Yavid]

I would make it so Tac. Bombers not Str. Bombers are night fighters. I think the Mosquito was a better night fighter than the Halifax.

[Alfalfa29]

This is an interesting idea, and accurate, but IMHO is probably too tactical a decision to affect the global situation. In a turn that represents 182 days, and a ‘bomber’ unit that likely represents several hundred planes, I am not sure that the time of day would be that crucial. Following that logic, I could tell my battleships what formation to sail into battle in, or unleash my Panzers into France a day earlier and 10 miles south of when they were expected.

I am behind you in principle and wish that more detail could be included, but feel that either all systems of the game should be adapted for tactical accuracy, or none of them.

[Imperious Leader]

1/2 rate rounded down, no scrambling either side. thats it

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

This may have been addressed before, but I have always liked the idea of night bombing in A&A. My suggestion would be that is conducted in a similar way to regular SBR raids with these exceptions.

1. The attacker declares their SBR and that they intend to bomb at night.

2. The defender can choose to intercept, however they must use their bombers only. Many bombers in WWII were built as night fighters. This could apply to TBs but I leave that up to the players.

3. All aircraft will attack and defend at 1.

4. Attacking bombers roll and the defender removes casualties behind the casualty line.

5. Defender rolls.

6. All casualties are removed.

7. Defending AA fires. Casualties are halved rounded-up to simulate the difficulty of spotting targets at night.

8. Surviving bombers then roll for damage. The result is halved and rounded-up due to the difficulty of night bombing.

Are you really suggesting using Strategic bombers as interceptors?
Or just Tactical Bombers (and StB when playing without TcB)?

This is a weird concept at first glance.

But it could be used as a way of marking Night-bombing, as such:
During Night Bombing SBR, both StB and TcB can bombard IC.
Half damage for each: StB: 1D6/2 +1 while TcB get 1d6/2.

The Mosquito was used for a variety of tasks. It was used as a pathfinder plane during bombing raids on Germany. Flying with Bomber Command at night, it would attack a specific target ahead of the main bombing force, guiding them to that target. The Mosquito suffered fewer losses than any other plane attached to Bomber Command. The Mosquito was also used for the bombing of specific targets as it had the speed for low level accurate bombing. Some Mosquitoes were equipped with heavy cannon and were used to attack German armour on battlefields in western Europe. Some were equipped with night-fighting radar and as a result, the Mosquito became the most successful British night-fighter. Some Mosquitoes were fitted out with rockets and attacked Nazi shipping.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/mosquito.htm

With no interceptors and AAA needing to make 3 x “1” rolls to get down two bombers, Night bombing may seems attractive. EDIT: in fact, it is not the case. See posts below.

---

Another way to play Night Bombing could be as a 1 round preemptive regular attack against IC:
Only bombers (StB and TcB) which miss are shot at by AAA @1.
So, each StB get as many damage as they roll for succeeding: 1 to 4 success (for 1 to 4 IPCs bombing damage), 5 and 6 miss.
In addition, each TcB get a success with 1 to 3 (for 1 to 3 IPCs bombing damage), and from 4 to 6 get a failure.

After, AAA @1 roll only against StB which get 5 and 6, and also against TcB which get 4-5-6.
So during Night bombing, there would be 2/36 (or 1/18) odds of putting down a StB and 1/12 of putting down a TcB. (Probably TcBs are flying at a lower altitude.)

Making up to StB average Night Bombing: 1+2+3+4+0+0=10/6 IPCs = 1.67 IPCs - [(cost:12*2/36)= 4/6] = +1 IPC per SBR.
This reward would be lower than regular SBR (2.583 IPCs damage/StB):

G1940: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs (avg  of 3+4+5+6+7+8)/6= 4.583 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

Sum: 4.583 - 2.00 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB

While TcB average Night Bombing: 1+2+3+0+0+0= 6/ 6 IPCs = 1 IPC - cost:11*1/12 = + 1/12 or 0.083 IPC per SBR.

With this other mechanics, Night-bombing SBR is still less dangerous but lesser effective than SBR and balance.

Did Bomber Command get a good return for the investment in men and planes during the bombing of Germany? There is no doubt that the casualty statistics for Bomber Command were very high. On some bombing missions over Germany, air crews might have a one in twenty chance of returning alive. The stress of flying a mission was such that recent research has found that many of those who survived bombing missions, became victims after the war ended. Failed marriages and alcoholism were not unusual for veterans of Bomber Command.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_world_war_two.htm

After reading on the Mosquito:

The Mosquito suffered fewer losses than any other plane attached to Bomber Command. The Mosquito was also used for the bombing of specific targets as it had the speed for low level accurate bombing.

Maybe all TcBs could attack @4 (because of their accuracy and ability to get closer to target) same as StB during Night-bombing? So TcB will get the same attrition rate: 2/36.

So all night-bombers (TcB and StB) will be nearer the 5% maximum attrition rate during worst UK’s SBR mission in day-light.

To give crews experience of night flying, Bomber Command introduced primarily night raids. Though crews were usually safe from German fighters, the weather was another matter. The temperature could fall very low and engines and machine gun turrets could literally freeze. Frost bite and oxygen shortages were a real problem. Night time navigation was also a major problem as Germany had a full blackout and the astro-sextant, used to navigate via the stars, was not reliable  neither was the radio aerial. Successful navigation was almost entirely due to the skill of the crew as opposed to any man-made contrivance. The situation did not change until late 1941 when the GEE was introduced a far more sophisticated radio aid.

In the first six months of the war, Bomber Command made 262 night sorties over Germany, at a cost of five aircraft missing and eight that crashed. The experience crews got from such sorties was to prove invaluable in later years. By comparison, in daylight raids, Bomber Command suffered an attrition rate of about 20% (173 planes used with 31 lost).

[…]
In early 1940, the Air Staff believed that it was only a matter of time before Germany attacked the west of Europe. When this happened, what they wanted was a massive attack by Bomber Command on the Ruhr – using all of their planes to destroy the heart of Germany’s industry. Ludlow-Hewitt was against such an attack as he estimated that 50% of his planes would be lost and that Bomber Command would be operationally crippled for many months. Ludlow-Hewitt was replaced as commander-in-chief by Air Marshall Portal and on April 13th 1940, Portal was given a command that if an attack on the west occurred, his targets were to be German troop concentrations and rail yards and oil plants in the Ruhr. The attacks were to be done primarily at night. Germany launched their attack on the west on May 10th; on May 15th, Bomber Command launched a major attack on the Ruhr. Of the 78 planes on the night raid, only one was lost. However, smog over the Ruhr obscured many of the targets and only 24 crews claimed to have even seen their planned targets.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bomber_command_1939.htm

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

This may have been addressed before, but I have always liked the idea of night bombing in A&A. My suggestion would be that is conducted in a similar way to regular SBR raids with these exceptions.

1. The attacker declares their SBR and that they intend to bomb at night.

2. The defender can choose to intercept, however they must use their bombers only. Many bombers in WWII were built as night fighters. This could apply to TBs but I leave that up to the players.

3. All aircraft will attack and defend at 1.

4. Attacking bombers roll and the defender removes casualties behind the casualty line.

5. Defender rolls.

6. All casualties are removed.

7. Defending AA fires. Casualties are halved rounded-up to simulate the difficulty of spotting targets at night.

8. Surviving bombers then roll for damage. The result is halved and rounded-up due to the difficulty of night bombing.

There is many issues in your HR, at an historical level you tried to depicts with few additions or modifiers the Night bombing but at the game play level this doesn’t seem viable compared to regular G40 SBR, IMHO.

By introducing (fighters and TcBs?) escort and interception @1, you already increase greatly the risk compared to the basic (1 out 6, for D6+2 damage) SBR without it.

You decrease the reward by two but the risks to loose a StB are not really decrease for the first one at least. Any hits from interceptor will destroy StB and the first AAA hit will also destroy 1 StB. It is only if there is another “1” rolled by AAA that 1 other StB is immunized.

Here is a comparison of Night Bombing with Regular G40 SBR 1 StB+1 Fg against 2 Fgs:
Results:

Bombard on IC: 81% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 4.455 IPCs / Night B: 2.2275
Killing 2 Fgs: 2.7%+20 IPCs =   + 0.54 IPC                                        / same
Killing 1 Fg: 27.8% +10 IPCs =  + 2.78 IPCs                                     / same
Fg killed: 23.1%-10 IPCs =        - 2.31 IPCs                                      /same
StB killed: 11.6%-12 IPCs =       - 1.392 IPCs                                    /same
StB & Fg killed: 7.4%*-22 IPCs = - 1.628 IPCs                                   /same

Sum: 7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/StB  / Night B: 5.55 - 5.33 = + .22 IPCs damage/StB

So, you need to do Night Bombing with at least 2 StBs to increase the damage factor by saving the ass of the second bombers if it fall on a lucky double “1” AAA.
If you only do Night Bombing with 1 StB, even with a large number of Fgs, the first hit from AAA shoot it down.
So at this basic level (1StB+1Fg), attacker is weaker and keep the same defending odds against him.

That is why IL suggestion is less historical but playable however.

But I’m guessing you want to introduce something for TcB (Mosquito type bomber) in Night bombing.

Was it a fighter-bomber or a light-bomber? (Or both? according to the various type built.)

Hope your not too disappointed. I’m still willing to help improve your idea.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

1/2 rate rounded down, no scrambling either side. thats it

Here is the comparison :

OOB G1940: 2 StBs doing SBR without interceptor
For 1 StB:
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/ 1 StB

For 2 StBs:
StB#1 AAA roll /StB#2 AAA roll

11= 1/36 StB#1 killed by AAA and StB#2 immunized 2.778%
15= 5/36 StB#1 killed by AAA : 13.889%
51= 5/36 StB#2 killed by AAA : 13.889%
55= 25/36 no casualty : 69.444%

Results:
OOB SBR damage: 69.444% * 2*((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = 7.639 IPCs
Night Bombing damage: 69.444% * 2*((1+1) +(3+1) IPCs)/2= + 3 IPCs) =4.167 IPCs

OOB SBR damage: 27.778% * 1*((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = 1.528 IPCs /
NightB damage: 27.778% * 1*(+ 3 IPCs) = 0.833 IPC

OOB SBR casualty: 27.778% 1 StB killed -12 IPCs = - 3.333 IPCs 
Night Bombing casualty: 30.556%-12= - 3.667 IPCs

OOB SBR casualty: 2.778%  both StB killed *-24 IPCs = - 0.667 IPCs

Sum: 9.167 - 4 = + 5.167 IPCs damage/2 StBs  /  Night Bombing: 5 -3.667 = 1.333 IPC damage/ 2 StBs

So there is no interest to make a Night Bombing under this HR either.
The regular StB will have much more impact.
There is only a small 1/36 odds to save the additional bombers (- 4 vs - 3.667 IPCs) .

So, even this IL Night Bombing HR without interceptors is not an optimize choice for any player.

[baron Münchhausen]

Maybe, if the attrition rate for Night Bombing was around 1%, it can be considered that:
no AA gun from IC can retaliate during a Night Bombing.

However, the damage need to be minimal.
Something like what we have in the Convoy disruption rule:
TcB and StB can make 1 or 2 IPCs damage on IC if they roll “1 or 2”.
Any other results worth “0”.
The net results for 1 StB or TcB will be:
1+2+0+0+0+0=3/6= .5 IPC - 0 IPC = .5 IPC damage/StB or TcB.

The net results will be slightly better than the OP HR: 5.55 - 5.33 = .22 IPC.
If it is too low: add the “3” as a success roll :
1+2+3+0+0+0=6/6= 1 IPC - 0 IPC = 1 IPC damage/StB or TcB.

Or give only to StBs (as Subs in Convoy rules) two dices still hitting on “1 or 2”.

[Imperious Leader]

Well then find a fixed damage result that works with the math. The night bombing concept is good for cash poor nations that have small air forces, the key is bombers can only get shot down by AA rolls.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Well then find a fixed damage result that works with the math. The night bombing concept is good for cash poor nations that have small air forces, the key is bombers can only get shot down by AA rolls.

If AA rolls are allowed, it should be at a much lower rate than 1/6.
Hence, it generates some game mechanics limitations.
We cannot start with something like if 1 AA gun roll “1” then roll again, and if it is again “1” then a bomber is destroy.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Well then find a fixed damage result that works with the math. The night bombing concept is good for cash poor nations that have small air forces, the key is bombers can only get shot down by AA rolls.

@Baron:

If AA rolls are allowed, it should be at a much lower rate than 1/6.
Hence, it generates some game mechanics limitations.
We cannot start with something like if 1 AA gun roll “1” then roll again, and if it is again “1” then a bomber is destroy.

The only other way I see, is this:

Another way to play Night Bombing could be as a 1 round preemptive regular attack against IC:
Only bombers (StB and TcB) which miss are shot at by AAA @1.

So, each StB and TcB get as many damage as they roll for succeeding:
1 to 4 success (for 1 to 4 IPCs bombing damage), 5 and 6 miss.

After, AAA @1 roll only against each StBs and TcBs which get 5 and 6.
So during Night bombing, there would be 2/36 (or 1/18) odds of putting down each StB and TcB. (Probably TcBs are flying at a lower altitude but are much more accurate than StB.)

Making up to StB and TcB average Night Bombing: 1+2+3+4+0+0=10/6 IPCs = 1.67 IPCs - [(cost: 122/36)= 4/6 or .67] = +1 IPC per SBR. or 1.67 IPCs - (-112/36= 0.61 IPC) for = + 1.06 IPC per TcB.

This reward would be lower and less riskier than regular SBR (4.583 - 2 = 2.583 IPCs damage/StB):

The actual rate of this HR would be 3 times less damage (4.6 vs 1.67) and 3 times less shooting down (2 vs 4/6).

[Imperious Leader]

I was gonna bring that up, since it is at night perhaps AA rolls are reduced in half rounded down, or roll 1 twice thing.

The options of this tactic could be supported with merit if you got the number right ( a fixed one)

[Imperious Leader]

I don’t understand.

Just make an example without all the 2/16 x34 XYZ thing.

I think you mean: planes roll d6 count only damage 1-4, making 5 or 6 a miss. The ones that miss get a AA roll against them hitting at 1?

Is that the idea?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

I don’t understand.

Just make an example without all the 2/16 x34 XYZ thing.

I think you mean: planes roll d6 count only damage 1-4, making 5 or 6 a miss.
The ones that miss get a AA roll against them hitting at 1?

Is that the idea?

Yes it is.
Sorry, I thought that the bold sentences were as near an example as possible.

Another way to play Night Bombing could be as a 1 round preemptive regular attack against IC:
Only bombers (StB and TcB) which miss are shot at by AAA @1.

So, each StB and TcB get as many damage as they roll for succeeding:
1 to 4 success (for 1 to 4 IPCs bombing damage), 5 and 6 miss.

After, AAA @1 roll only against each StBs and TcBs which get 5 and 6.

So, 1 StB and 1 TcB are Nightbombing: they roll a “5” and a “4”.
StB missed.
TcB gets 4 IPCs damage on IC.

AA gun from IC gets a chance to roll against StB: a “2”, it is a miss.
The StB survived the Night bombing along with the TcB.

If AA gun have rolled “1” instead of the “2”, then the StB would have been destroyed.

That’s the only way to reduced the AA gun hit ratio against bombers doing Night SBR within the actual A&A game mechanics.

[toblerone77]

For God’s sake it’s a simple idea. For frickin’ fun. As for the bombers intercepting it could easily be 86’d. In my defense damn near every German bomber has a night fighter variant in real, actual, historical, life. HBG has any number of custom sculpts that could be used as a night fighter possibly a tech or whatever hell suits your fancy. Night fighters could also be a custom National Advantage.

As for wider appeal to/for the masses, IL’s idea of halving damage for night raids, sans the night fighters, is easy and would work fine.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

For God’s sake it’s a simple idea. For frickin’ fun. As for the bombers intercepting it could easily be 86’d. In my defense damn near every German bomber has a night fighter variant in real, actual, historical, life. HBG has any number of custom sculpts that could be used as a night fighter possibly a tech or whatever hell suits your fancy. Night fighters could also be a custom National Advantage.

As for wider appeal to/for the masses, IL’s idea of halving damage for night raids, sans the night fighters, is easy and would work fine.

So, we can let aside the StB sculpt and unit as a Night Fighter.
Instead, use a TcB (such as Mosquitos) or HBG custom sculpts that could be used as night fighter interceptor and escort.

So, in both daylight SBR and night SBR, StB are attacking IC.

In daylight, TcB cannot attack IC but can attack NB or AB.
At night SBR, TcB can be used as escort for StB (turning back before AA fire on it) and as raider on IC (submitting to AA fire, same as StB).
Is the last point OK for you?
Or do you keep nightfighter (TcB) as Interceptor and escort only, and keeping StB as the sole unit to bombard IC?

As I said earlier, the Imp Leader half damage (rounding up) night raid without interceptor is for historical junkie, not for player who want to win the game with optimal tactics, because it is too detrimental against bombers taking part in it with no interesting reward: daylight SBR will totally prevail in such HR.

But the real Imp Leader (rounding down) night raid without interceptor is actually more powerful than the daily light SBR. It will be the end of OOB SBR as such, and Night raid will prevail:

Does the idea is to make Night SBR a different and advantageous tactics with distinctive features over daylight SBR?

[toblerone77]

This idea is really not that complex. It’s an idea that has a historical basis no matter what scale or game we’re talking about. For the sake of argument let’s just ditch the interceptors and escorts. Keep the attack focused on ICs only. Reduce AA fire to half the casualties as well as halve the damage inflicted on ICs. the advantage to either side is half damage or casualties and adds another option to the game. Not really all that complex.

As for custom units. I’m tired of making suggestions on this in regards to HRs. There are so many ways to go with these, from simple esthetics to making your own rules. Â

Edit: It must also be specified that in a scenario where it was 1vs.1 STB vs. AA  an AA rolling a hit and halving the result then rounding down would mean the bomber would always break through AA fire.

This could be avoided by rounding up or using a D12@1 for AA fire all rolls of one on a D12 die/dice hit with not halving mechanism. Additionally a sub-rule or exception could be made where a single bomber could be repulsed.

Or night raids could only be performed with two or more bombers only.

Or night raids could simply be repulsed rather than destroyed. This could possibly be further modified by allowing AA to fire at 2 or less. They wouldn’t destroy night raiders but they could repulse them with the advantage of a higher defense stat.

Lastly, the original idea could be changed whereby the whole night raiding idea is changed altogether: Nighttime SBR is similar to regular SBR except there are no escorts or interceptors and only ICs may be targeted. Only AA fires just as normal. STBs that survive the AA barrage must roll their regular combat attack stat of 4@D6. If they score a hit they cause 2 damage points. This version of the rule negates interceptor and escorts risking only AA fire from the IC however they inflict much less damage.