American Pac-Strat: Why Alpha +2 is not a balanced game!

[jim010]

Sounds like a challenge.

[Jennifer]

So you are advocating NO attacks on the British AT ALL by Germany, no attack on Yugoslavia or Greece?

Then you would have significantly more power, but then, England would be in West Germany long before Germany is in Russia!  I will have the NO for SZ 125 every round without fail.

With 1 or 2 carriers, 2 battleships, 1 cruiser, 3 or 4 destroyers, 2 or 3 transports, I’ll be landing in Norway (-8 IPC for Germany), Holland, W. France, I’ll have planes ready to send into Moscow to defend should that be needed (it won’t but it shouldn’t matter) and before Germany can get into Russia (the TT, not the country) the Americans will be dropping 5 transports worth of gear into Africa/Europe per round with Japan removed (for all intents and purposes) from the game.

[Jennifer]

For the record, I take your challenge:

America goes Pacific
Germany goes Russia without attacking the Balkan states, without attacking the British fleet and without conducting Sea Lion
America can only come to the aid of the British and Russians (Europe Theater only, no rule against helping the Pacific theater Russians) when Japan has been neutrallized for all intents and purposes. (I don’t care what fleet they have, as long as they no longer have the option of building it up and the fall of India, Australia and/or America is no longer a threat.  I won’t allow you to just run your Japanese fleet to the Indian Ocean and then claim America is still limited to Pacific theater…had that one pulled on me already, that’s why killing the Japanese fleet isn’t part of the strategy.)

I will be gracious and allow you to attack SZ 112, since that contains a French boat, we’ll consider the floatilla there French, not British.  However, SZ 111, SZ 110, SZ 91, SZ 109, SZ 106 and SZ 98 are off limits!

[oztea]

Germany
Purchase:
1 Transport
1 Sub
1 Tank
1 Mech Infantry
1 Artillery
1 Infantry

Combat moves agaisnt UK
Sub SZ 117, 118> SZ 106 (87.2 % win)
Sub 108, 124> 109 (66% chance of 1 hit, and thats all I want, to kill the destroyer)
Fighter Norway, Cruiser, Battleship 113 > 112 (98.1 % win)

Combat moves against France
Western Germany 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical > SZ 93 (89.2 % win)
Holland Belgum 3 Infantry, 1 Artilery, 1 Fighter; West Germany Tactical Bomber > Normandy/ Bordeux (85.6 %win)
Western Germany 2 Mech Infantry, 1 Tactical Bomber; Greater Southern Germany Tank> Southern France (98.0 % win)
Holland Belgum 1 Infantry, 1 artillery, 3 Tanks; Western Germany 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Mech infantry, Tactical bomber; Greater Southern Germany 1 Tank; Germany Tactical Bomber, Bomber; Poland Tactical Bomber; Slovakia Hungary Fighter > France (93.9 %win)

To reitarate 4 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Mech Infantry, 4 Tanks, 1 fighter, 3 Tactical bombers, 1 bomber > France

Combat moves against neutrals
Greater Southern Germany 6 Infantry, 2 artillery; Poland 1 Tank, Romania 1 tank > Yugoslavia (3 Hits round 1 on average, the retreat to Romania, losses of 1 or 2 infantry)

Noncombat moves
Sub 103 > 92 or 87 dependent on situation
2 Infantry Denmark > West Germany
Tank Slovakia Hungary activates Bulgaria
Attacking planes from SZ 93 land in South Italy, all other planes land in west germany
1 Infantry Norway Activate Finaland
Transport 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery Germany to Finland
Move 10 INF & 2 Artillery from germany to Poland
Move 2 INF Slovakia to Romainia

This leaves 12 Infantry, 2 Artillery in Poland
8-10 Infantry, 2 artillery, 2 tanks in romania and 1 in Bulgaria too
Land units built at Germany, tank and mech can hit the front
Transport and sub into 112 if all went well

[Jennifer]

Don’t say it, PLAY IT!

And when you do, please don’t forget to ask for scrambles!  Send me a link to the game!  We’ll keep the forum updated and when I crush you horribly, we can part friends, okay?  :wink:

[oztea]

Troubble is ive never played by forum, i have no idea how to do so

[Jennifer]

Oh that’s easy.  Get the module from someone (it’s in the software section) for Abattlemap.

You type out your moves, as you did, then roll the dice with the forum dicey.  ;aaa #@X; where the semi-colons are colons, the # sign is the number of whatever units are rolling and the X is the target number.

Ie: 17 Infantry, 6 Artillery, 12 Armor, 3 Fighters, 1 Strategic Bomber would be:
;aaa 11@1 12@2 15@3 1@4;

It would display as:
Rolls: 11@1 12@2 15@3 1@4; Total Hits: 1311@1: (3, 6, 2, 1, 6, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 2)12@2: (6, 5, 5, 3, 6, 2, 3, 6, 4, 3, 1, 4)15@3: (2, 6, 4, 2, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 5, 4, 1, 3, 2)1@4: (3)

Then you save your map and upload it to the site.  I download it, and do my turn.

You really need to get practice on this.  We are sticklers for proving your point here, andthe only way to do that is to show us it in action.  I happen to know attacking Russia and ignoring England is a very, VERY bad idea, but I cannot prove it to you until we play a game.  I can tell you  17 ways from Sunday what needs to be done to stop Germany from winning, but until you see it, you probably won’t believe me. (I wouldn’t believe someone if they didn’t show me it at least once against me. )

[rocknroll]

@Cmdr:

So you are advocating NO attacks on the British AT ALL by Germany, no attack on Yugoslavia or Greece?

are you sure this was meant? i have it understood that you don´t go sealion, but attack the british fleet, sinking it. and leaving yugoslavia to italy is very helpful for a german approach into russia. greece can be taken on round two without any problems (inf from bulgaria, tanks from romania).

maybe i am mistaken.

but: not attacking britain at all is a way to say good bye!

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

I am one of the, if not the, creators of the American Pac-Strat. As such, I feel I have some authority in which to discuss how it effects the game, what makes it balanced or unbalanced and how it could, if need be, fixed.

I like this statement, I envision you sitting by your computer almost breaking your arm patting yourself on the back.:)  Seriously though, I don’t think anyone can claim to be the originator of a 100% strategy.  Considering this has been the method used in all the previous incarnations of the game with the difference being instead of going after Europe100% America is going after the Pacific.  This is because unlike the other games the US’s money is now in the pacific.

If someone can be considered the originator, then I would have to say they would be among the first owners of the game, since by owning a copy it means you are able to start applying basic strategies, like 100% in one theater.

I can’t wait to compare this 100% strat with Garg’s ‘devils tongue’…where is that by the way?

[Gargantua]

People are still waiting for that?

Guess I better post it…

[Jennifer]

100% Pac-Strat, everyone did 100% Europe strats. =p

And yes, I believe he meant to preserve his air power and use it against Russia on round 1, so he had the firepower to do both Russia AND France which would eliminate the possibility of hitting the British (as my scrambled fighters would annhilate his attacking forces.)  I believe his objection was based on a faulty premise: That England was unable to defend their fleet, which was based on a misunderstanding of the rules: That England could not scramble planes (which they can, obviously.)

[thatonekid]

hey jen, i know im just jumpin in on this, but could you kind of show me how to play online. via battlemap or w/e its called. im kind of a newb to this, and i really just wanna be able to play, and further my abilities. ty  :-D

[special forces]

It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

(it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)

[thatonekid]

@special:

It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

(it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)

keep in mind that kami’s can only be used to DEFEND.

[special forces]

@thatonekid:

@special:

It’s probably an insane idea, but hey, why not make the Hawai SZ a Kamikaze area, and give Japan Kami’s from the start. Might let USA have to hold back at least a little bit?

(it might also help for a Pearl Harbor attempt)

keep in mind that kami’s can only be used to DEFEND.

Good point… so: offensive Kami’s!  :-D

[suprise attack]

TANK YOU for the info on the a battlemap I can never seem to find the correct map and the images for the pieces seem real small, and then theres how to move them again tank you, Im going to dig back into it and try to figure it out. then try to find the time.

[Strikers]

Whether you like sea-lion or not Germany has to focus on england for the first 2-3 turns at the very least. Germany has to eliminate most of the British navy the very first turn. If you keep the threat of a strong sea-lion you can force England into putting most of their cash for the first couple turns into defending their capitol. If you dont do sea lion you can then build a sub or two a turn combined with half of the German airforce and you can keep the British from invading Europe and possible damage Englands economy with convoy warefare. While you are keeping England from gaining any real strength you have a major land war going with the Soviets.

[BigBadBruce]

@Cmdr:

Russia is plenty strong enough to prevent the fall of Moscow.

I disagree.

@Cmdr:

i) Russia cannot beat Germany without America!
So what? Russia does not have to BEAT anything, it only has to survive!

True. So statement should be : Russia won’t survive if left be himself.

@Cmdr:

ii) But won’t Germany get too strong if England falls?
Not really. Just because Germany and Italy have 120 IPC combined and a foot hold on England, Europe and Africa does not mean they will win!

True… but it’s a heck of an edge for it.

@Cmdr:

For one, India is collecting 30 IPC and headed into the Middle East.

Really?? If Calcutta is at 30IPC, then Axis lost the game already. I never let Calcutta earn that much when I play Axis. In any case, stating “With 30IPC…” is a false start, you end up with 30IPC at the end of a win for Allies, or perhaps 1 turn if Japan didn’t attack in first 3 turns.

@Cmdr:

America has a warfleet of surface ships they dont need in the Pacific that will be quickly headed towards the Atlantic

Here again I disagree. Have USA clean Pacific and end up in Atlantic? That will never happen before turn 6-7… which is plenty time for Axis to take over England, have Russia invasion going and strongly hold Gibraltar.

@Cmdr:

to retake Africa and, worst of all, there will only be income for the NO of London for Germany, after the convoys.

So useless to retake Africa. Actually, as Axis player, I would so be pleased to see USA spend time/ressources for Africe. No IC site (but the too far south Africa). I didn’t understand the second part of this statement.

@Cmdr:

Essentials: Germany must reinforce against Russia, or retreat. Germany must defend France or lose it. Germany must defend England, or face liberation by the Americans. Italy must defend Africa. Italy must defend the Middle East.

Of course German must reinforce against Russia… they are the wining objective (once Sea Lion accomplished). I don’t have the same reading as you regarding Europe. If USA as 100% Pac-Strat… where’s the threat against France and London?? Italy will surely easily defend Middle East against Calcutta, no issue there… that and Gibraltar, nothing else to do at this point of the game.

@Cmdr:

So what can we do about it?

Nothing. Up to now I feel Alpha 2 balanced. I don’t say I will surely win against you… but I’m positive that your strat is not a sure win with Allies. Actually, I feel you have less chance to win with a 100% Pac-Strat… and I challenge you! I’m confident I’ll win a majority of games against that strat (like at least 3 out of 5).

[Chompers2]

@BigBadBruce,

Maybe I just need to learn better tactics but I am finding that if the Allies do an Italy Stomp first while reinforcing Hawaii that Allied victory is probable.  It have used it to great success as the Allies and I have lost a couple of games to the Allies as the Axis due to this tactic.

It seems to me that the USA with the help of the UK can ruin Italy’s economy fairly quickly.  By smashing the Italian Navy on the UK’s first turn and then sending the American’s roaring to Gilbraltar Italy watches it’s economy quickly dissolve. When this happens I have not been able to recover since I am now facing all the Allied Countries with just Germany and Japan.

By flying fighters to Hawaii and using the transports it starts with the US can reinforce Hawaii also.  At this point Japan could take Hawaii if it wanted to but it would have to expend too many resources to do so.  The problem with Japan not taking Hawaii though is it leaves the USA enough time (imho) to wreck Europe enough that Russia/UK can stand on their own 2 feet. When the USA does have to spend heavily in the Pacific to stop Japan from winning the game they no longer have to worry about the Axis winning in Europe.

If I could find a way to win the game quicker as Japan before USA gets back to the Pacific then that would obviously be an effective counter.  Yet to date my Allied opponents have had a pretty good handle of when to stop smashing Europe and turn their attention to defense in the Pacific.

I am not going to say the Italy stomp can’t be countered but I will say that I am struggling against it and I have tried a variety of tactics to counter it that have not succeeded.

It just seems to me if Italy was slightly stronger or Russia was a tad weaker then the game would be more balanced.

Yet maybe I just need better tactics :P

[BigBadBruce]

I don’t have absolut strategy with Axe. I won my 4 games with Axe with different players and, therefore, different alliance strategy that I had to deal with.

Reading you, it seems Japan always attack early in your games. What I do with Japan is wait until a killing shot to attack… and if none occurs, then I attack Allies on J3, perhaps even J4 since Japan is before USA. But sure thing is, if USA reinforce Hawai on USA1, Japan completly destroy all navy there. A real Pearl Harbor occurs with a devastating 52/22 against a max possibly of 41/16 for USA (Combat value/hit point). z26 would most likely be clear in 2 waves…

As Japan, I also attack Russia on the very first turn, no matter what Russia does at R1.

Usually USA will avoid that sure lost battle. Therefore they just can’t go to Gibraltar before USA4… by that time, Gibraltar is well defended, either by Germany or Italy, depending on the game.

IF UK attacks Italy, then UK will also loose all navy… in that trade I find Italy winner.

That being said, I would enjoy testing my axis tactic, I invite you in a game. As I said, perhaps elsewhere, without playing at least 10 games, no one (including me) can state the game unbalanced. I played over 15 games of OOB Global40 (on boardgame, not here)before saying there’s absolutly noway that Axis can win, no matter waht. I challenge any game tester to state otherwise.