Italy a bad design

[gamerman01]

@Uncle_Joe:

Good to hear. :) I too played Italy in our Global game and I had fun with them. The Brits did not kill my fleet due to the Germans breathing down their neck in the Atlantic and I quickly dominated Africa, the Mid-East and was pressing into Russia just a bit when the Allies surrendered.

I enjoyed playing Italy in AA50 and I think they are considerably more interesting now. :)

Considerably.  I really enjoyed my I1 last night.
Oh, and by the way?

I was on the other end of calvinhobbes attack.  He attacked with DD, CA, FTR, Tac and lost all but the fighter, only dinging my battleship.  I counterattacked with everything, sinking his French DD and CA, UK CV and FTR, losing a DD and FTR (he hit 3 out of 4).

So it doesn’t always even work to attack the Italians pre-emptively.  The beatdown Germany puts on the UK on G1 is more significant than any of this Med nonsense.  I guess people just aren’t used to the Axis being subject to a big fleet pre-emptive strike on the first turn that they stand to lose.

Get over it.  It’s an awesome game, and it will take many plays before anyone can really say anything’s broken.  So stop trying to sound so smart by announcing the game is messed up in the first week that it’s out - it’s annoying.  :-)

[gredert]

At 16 pages in a couple of days can anymore be said on this? Another guy posted a fix that just makes it so Italy has to declare war on I1 thus UK doesnt attack them. So if you think currntly it is broken play it that way.

[Imperious Leader]

Another guy posted a fix that just makes it so Italy has to declare war on I1 thus UK doesnt attack them.

Thats me and yes thats what the game should have.

This means that Germany does not have to do a “fake sea lion” just to get the British to back off and block in SZ 110. When the game forces one player to buy something in order for another player to stop doing a certain play that wipes out a third player, the games design is faulty. Italy cannot last with most of its fleet sunk before it can even play the game.

I dont see the UK attack on the IT navy as being a no-brainer or ‘broken’ at all. It represents a commitment to the Med that will cost the Brits in the Atlantic.

Then play a scenario of a CV and 2 AP build for Germany and UK just buys infantry and DOES NOT BLOCK. Germany invades without opposition and takes UK. If you feel thats a fair trade of some Italian ships for England, then play that.

UK can still commit to the Mediterranean and trade off London. Go look at the odds of an unopposed invasion.

It is a forces move if Germany makes that build. Its the only thing that saves UK

[maverick_76]

Well I still feel that you have to play out an entire game to see whether or not that breaks the gameplay, if it does not then why worry about it?

[Imperious Leader]

You don’t need to do that. G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces. If UK wants to trade some Italian ships for losing London, then thats fine.

Of course Germany will lose some planes, but UK wont get back UK either, Italy can land a fighter in London from North Italy.

[pusfilledwart]

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used

[hewhoisnickel]

@pusfilledwart:

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used

:?

Whaaat?

Why not? Sea Lion has worked for Germany in the games I’ve played, and whenever it succeeded it led to victory.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@hewhoisnickel:

@pusfilledwart:

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used

:?

Whaaat?

Why not? Sea Lion has worked for Germany in the games I’ve played, and whenever it succeeded it led to victory.

Then UK wasn’t playing correctly, or if it was taken, US/Russia weren’t. US shouls be able to liberate UK and Russia should be breathing down Germany’s back since it spends most of its money on navy

[chompers]

I don’t understand how Germany pulls off a G2 Sea Lion if GB goes 9 inf turn one outside of praying for good dice.  Hoping for good luck shouldn’t form the cornerstone of a strategy.

[oztea]

Playing a game upstairs as Germany/Italy

They attacket the Taranto Fleet….I still took Egypt turn 3.

Italy is still at 32 IPCs and its like turn 8

The Taranto Gambit weakens Egypt MORE than it hurts Italy

[calvinhobbesliker]

@oztea:

Playing a game upstairs as Germany/Italy

They attacket the Taranto Fleet….I still took Egypt turn 3.

Italy is still at 32 IPCs and its like turn 8

The Taranto Gambit weakens Egypt MORE than it hurts Italy

It weakens Egypt by 1 ftr and Italy by a CC, BB, and Tr, which can carry an inf and a tank

[Imperious Leader]

Its not that hard.

Just ignore the CV and 2 AP build and let Germany attack London with 4 fighters, 3 tactical, 1 bomber, SB BB, SB CA, 3 tanks, and 3 Infantry vs. 10 Infantry and 2 planes

Remember tactical bombers are at 4, so you got 3/3/3/3/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/1/1/1/ vs 4/4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/, which is 47 points vs. 28 ( depending on 2 fighters, or tactical bomber and fighter)

Of course AA will take a plane, but either way you LOSE and thanks to IL he saved you 10 minutes of looking at the odds.

Then when UK falls and UK won that battle against some Italian battleships, you will sleep well knowing the British people will be eating German food and giving her income to Adolf.

This is why Italy needs to be neutral till their own turn, because the game makes it a no trainer for Germany do do this build and play this move. It this rule existed, UK would not be required to bring the fleet to SZ 110 on UK1 to block, and also to build “infantry” when it really needs to build other things.

Germany would not need to build the “Fake-shemp Sealion fleet” if Italy was protected because she would rather have an air-force to use against Russia latter.

[chompers]

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106 there’ll be another infantry and tank in GB, plus you’re missing the 1 french infantry there as well.  If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.  Big potential gains but big potential losses as well.

[gamerman01]

@chompers:

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106 there’ll be another infantry and tank in GB, plus you’re missing the 1 french infantry there as well.  If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.  Big potential gains but big potential losses as well.

Exactly.  Why do you assume Germany will have all aircraft she starts with?

[domicron]

Not even close to broken.  Play more games.

[Imperious Leader]

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106,

Oh you mean against the German bomber and submarine?

So you mean a 4 and 2 vs a 2?

Yes quite right, so bring that extra fighter from France and make it 100%

4,3,2 vs 2

Yea thats much better. Yes the game is not busted if that destroyer rolls 3 hits in a row and the Germans miss rolling 4,4,3,3,2,2,…. Thats pretty optimistic thinking. I think they still sell loaded dice in vegas…

[Imperious Leader]

If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.

Yea with 47 to 28, losing that plane will drop the odds to 44 to 28. Yep pretty even odds i must say.

When you played this how many times did UK win?

[chompers]

Wait wha?  SZ 106 is off the coast of Canada.  How is the bomber attacking it?

[BJCard]

Kind of dumb to have UK not be able to declare war on Italy on its turn… Hell, it can declare war on Japan on any turn and Japan is half a world away!

By the way IL, UK has 3 Fighters on UK, 12 Inf, (1 Original, 1 French, 1 from Canada, 9 bought), 1 Arm (from Canada) So that is 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3/4/4/4 = 39, so yes, the loss of one German fighter makes it a pretty even battle.

[chompers]

I believe he’s assuming GB sinks the Italian fleet turn 1.