@magnum I’m not yet convinced that letting them pick what they want, and potentially the same thing, is a problem. If anything, this will give them the opportunity to try out different strategies, involving research, and see how they work.
A&A50 Alternative Set-Up
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I dunno if Germany warrants a battleship, especially in SZ 6. If they are getting one, it should be in SZ 5 I think.
Just a thought. Anyway, I’ve been working on my own house rules, something completely original and it’s got some starting unit set up alterations as well (since there are some glaring deficiencies in the original set up from my perspective including, among other things, the inability of Germany to follow up on Round 2 to support their round 1 actions.)
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@Cmdr:
I dunno if Germany warrants a battleship, especially in SZ 6. If they are getting one, it should be in SZ 5 I think.
Just a thought. Anyway, I’ve been working on my own house rules, something completely original and it’s got some starting unit set up alterations as well (since there are some glaring deficiencies in the original set up from my perspective including, among other things, the inability of Germany to follow up on Round 2 to support their round 1 actions.)
I am a big WW2 buff and it has always bothered me from A&A Classic to A&A50 that the German Battleship Bizmarck was not represented. The story about Bizmarck (the battleship in SZ6) breaking out into the Atlantic through the Noregian forge and than engaging the H.M.S Hood (the battleship in SZ2) is the greatest story of the war. The Atlantic theater should look the same after Germany’s turn anyway, it will just take bigger and longer sea battles in R1. So it is more of an historical placement than a strategical one (I’m so suprised the designers didn’t account for the Bizmarck this time around) Thank you for the imput and I do agree that 1941 and 42 both have serious problems…… With our set-up I’m worried about imbalances between nations. Do you have you’re own set-up you could share?
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I am for the German BB but only for play balance and only if the difference of compensation is also given to UK, Meaning they should get another cruiser with the BB.
Historically one BB for spring 1941 does not equate with 1 plastic unit. Germany would need about 4-5 battleships to get a “piece” , but if you consider Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Tirpitz, along with Admiral Hipper and Bismarck ( even if Bismarck was sunk in May 41…i guess it can be inferred.
But by the same token the British have like 16 battleships and should have 3-4 battleships, but only got one…so if you appeal to the history, you have to apply it across the board.
Why did you make this set up anyway? Is it for a different period your covering? or you are trying to go for Realistic?
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Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented. It’s only in Anniversary that it is removed and I think that was for game balance (easier to give the Bismark to Italy instead of having a solitary German BB in the Med.)
Just my opinion though.
If we give Germany a BB, I think it should be in SZ 5 (playability wise) and England should get +1 BB +2 CA to bring their fleet up to date power wise. (Bismark took out some UK BBs, but the Bismark was also lost, if we revive the Bismark, it’s only fair to revive the British ships too.)
For that matter, since the game starts before December 1941, we should replace the American Battleship in SZ 53 with 3 American Cruisers to represent the American Battleship fleet. (Remember, they were World War I battleships, not World War II battleships.)
It’s my opinion that the Cruiser in Anniversary represents the World War I battleship.
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@Imperious:
Why did you make this set up anyway? Is it for a different period your covering? or you are trying to go for Realistic?
We as a group are trying to go for fun (and maybe a little historical reality). We want certian aspects of the war represented in our set-up regardless of when they exactly happened like the Bizmarck and Hood battle, German U-boats praying on allied shipping lanes, Rommel in Africa, U-81 sinking the Ark Royal aircraft carrier just east of Gibralter and of course the raid on Pearl Harbour where there should be at least 1 American Battleship.
We like that the game begins with extra elements such as a German Battleship, a British aircraft carrier, a Russian and Italian bomber and American battleships. The British fleet is still vulnerable to a compleate wipe out (as ussual) however, a German Submarine might survive this round 1 battle which would be fine given their historic presence in the Atlantic. We are not 100% going for historic acuracy as much as we are trying to include all the great stories of the war into our set-up without worrying about perfection. We think the nations are ballanced give or take a cruiser here or there but we don’t want a player to feel defeated before they even get a turn playing a certain side.
I understand that 1 Battleship in history dose not nor should it represent 1 plastic piece in the game. There was alot of thought and play testing by the designers who carfully ballanced history with game play however, Our group is under the opinion that it is more fun to have a Battleship and lose it in the first battle than to never have a Battleship at all.
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@Cmdr:
If we give Germany a BB, I think it should be in SZ 5 (playability wise) and England should get +1 BB +2 CA to bring their fleet up to date power wise. (Bismark took out some UK BBs, but the Bismark was also lost, if we revive the Bismark, it’s only fair to revive the British ships too.)
Using our set-up above, do you think the British should get more starting boats?
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Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented.
well Germans didnt have any ships in the Medd. In MB AA the BB represents the Italian navy.
I too think the set up should be changed to a scenario where all players have somewhat a complete army
for the Germans this would be the BB, and perhaps another bomber
For Italy its one more DD
For Russia definatly they need the 2 fighters and 1 bomber and some tanks
for Japan i think they are ok
USA is ok except perhaps one more ship
UK needs another BB and another CA or perhaps a carrier
but everything needs to be balanced.
Id like to start some of the players with technology or have auto techs in the game, but this would have to be balanced
Id alter the VC so its possible to have independent VC conditions: so its not like japan and Germany have to maul the Soviets to get the allies to give up.
Id like the US player to have to fight in both pacific and europe close to equal efforts or Japan will win the game independently.
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@Imperious:
Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented.
I too think the set up should be changed to a scenario where all players have somewhat a complete army
for the Germans this would be the BB, and perhaps another bomber
For Italy its one more DD
For Russia definatly they need the 2 fighters and 1 bomber and some tanks
for Japan i think they are ok
USA is ok except perhaps one more ship
UK needs another BB and another CA or perhaps a carrier
but everything needs to be balanced.
Well our set-up addresses everything you listed so maybe we are on the right track after all…. as for being balanced only time will tell but I think it is important not to keep making changes. Make house rules to best improve the quality of the game and than force players to deal with the challenges those new rules bring. That being said we have made 1 change already… instead of adding a British boat we have taken away 1 German Submarine. I have already modified the list above.
As for German boats in the Med… When the British sunk the French fleet, didn’t Germany salvage anything after they occupied France?
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no they didn’t get anything out of that deal.
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Most of the cruisers were salvaged by the Italians, either to restore them as fighting ships or for scrap. The Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière were renamed FR11 and FR12, respectively, but their repair was prevented by allied bombing and their use would have been unlikely, given the Italians’ chronic shortage of fuel.
Italy got 2 cruisers, but thats not enough for a piece. 1 Cruiser= 6-8 actual cruisers
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Imperious Leader…. could you build my alternative set-up on your board and tell me if there are any game balance problems you can see?
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Thats alot of work. Perhaps if im really bored then yes.
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Thank you very much…. We will be playing our new set-up tommorow so I will let you know how that goes as well.
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We played our alternative set-up today and it went very well.
Germany did not hit the British aircraft carrier with everything they could so after some bad dice rolls and a late retreat from the Germany, the UK was left with 2 fighters that flew to Gibralter and later sunk the Italian destroyer. A better battle from the Germans would have balanced the Atlantic but the 2 British fighters didn’t cause too much damage in the long run.
In a strange twist the German player decided to lose the battleship as a casualty in SZ2 and instead kept the 2 submarines (which stayed in the Atlantic for 3 rounds harassing the British and American efforts),
Japan was as strong as ever but the US was not far behind with the starting battleship in SZ56 and it wasn’t a problem as far as balance. The pearl harbour ships were destroyed without shooting down a single plane but the Japanese submarine was sunk.
If there was one negative, it may have been how easily the Germans invaded Russia with below average dice rolls so we are considering adding 1 Russian infantry in East Poland.
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ok ill make you guys a deal…
I will make a setup file using your ideas
You guys then work on 1943 scenario, but you have to come up with something special:
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knowing the axis will lose the question is some minor modification of the Victory conditions, also some of the technologies should be on and favor the axis but appeal to historical realism as well as balance. The purpose of 1943 was to make a shorter game played in a few hours… so keep that in mind.
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some other rules may be necessary.
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@Imperious:
ok ill make you guys a deal…
I will make a setup file using your ideas
You guys then work on 1943 scenario, but you have to come up with something special:
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knowing the axis will lose the question is some minor modification of the Victory conditions, also some of the technologies should be on and favor the axis but appeal to historical realism as well as balance. The purpose of 1943 was to make a shorter game played in a few hours… so keep that in mind.
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some other rules may be necessary.
So…. you want us to create a new set-up reflecting 1943 with a few rule changes naturally creating a shorter game?
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yes kinda.
Something where the technology is scripted for specific nations each turn and some nations start with them. NO No’s and victory conditions like Germany must survive past turn X to win, or capture X VC.
Id add some new units to give some spice:
SS Panzers 5-5 tanks limit the number to like 4 and built once per turn at cost of 8
Hidden German Army ( its a group of pieces that shows up once per game…think Battle of the Bulge) of course its movement is kept secret.
even perhaps giving the Germans longer range rockets so they can bomb America?
something that would be fun to play knowing your going down, but have the ability to drag the world down with you with your advanced weapons kinda thing.
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I will put it across the group and see what they think (I believe they would welcome the challenge) but it will take us about a week or two to do it properly.
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Trisdin,
I like your group’s idea of replaying some of the more historical battles of WWII. I also like your alternate setup, but have y’all thought about adding some more ICs to the starting setup?
I mean, from a historical standpoint, shouldn’t Central US, Eatern Canada, Australia, and Czech-Hungary all have starting ICs? (and maybe India and France) I realize that ICs in Central US and Eastern Canada would barely be useful to the game, but I believe that they should be there. Also, Australia should have a starting IC because of its important contributions to the war in the South Pacific. (What’s up with Australia only having an IPC value of 2? I believe that it should be 3 or 4.) I compare a Czech-Hungary IC to the Eastern European nations which Germany cowed into submission and basically took over their production facilities before the war even began. France should have an IC, but probably not under the current map. Something more like the AARHE map which has France divided into 2 territories may be more like it. I mean, Vichy France produced a lot of materials for the German war effort. I’m still considering India, but it seems that with an Eastern Canada and an Australian IC for the UK, that an Indian IC might be a bit much.
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Trisdin,
I like your group’s idea of replaying some of the more historical battles of WWII. I also like your alternate setup, but have y’all thought about adding some more ICs to the starting setup?
My point is, buying and than placing a factory is the most strategical and creative decision a player can make, where to place it, when to place it and how many should be placed. Sometimes good players are very predictable in the way that alot of strategies are no brainers but placing a factory can be spontanious that is a great thing (IMO). I’m sure some of the guys would love an extra starting factory, that way they won’t have to pay for it and they can dump units on it right away (I’m not a fan of any of that).
I understand your argument about the historical merit of certian countries deserving a factory however, game balance is very fragile when dealing with factories on the board. Canada produced an astonishing amount of destroyers and frigits that basicly turned the war against German U-boats and yet there is only 1 in their sea zone.
If I were to suggest to my group 1 starting factory for Britian, America and Japan (only 1 per/country) Where do you think the best territories would be to place all of them?
Thanks for the compliments on our alternative set-up.
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