Does anyone do Combat Air Patroles in Non-Pacific A&A Games?

@Carolina:

To Baron on his first post - my point on giving an attack A1 on the interception round was show that historically STR bomber did shoot down fighters in air battles (I believe B17s shot down more fighters than any other aircraft) and I want to preserve that fact.

OK, so keep as below but StB “1” roll directly hit planes while 2, 3 and 4 make normal casualty.
That way, Fgs and TcBs rolls stay preemptive while StBs can roll if they survive and can still shot down some planes with a “1”.

@Baron:

The first combat round is more important than others.
Full attack with all units is part of the attacker evaluation process to make a go or no go.

A less impactful way to simulate this air battle can simply to follow this stages during first combat round:
1- All AAA fire @1 against attacking planes.
Remove attacking aircrafts casualties.
2- All Fighters A3 D4 (and TacBs A3-4 D3?) roll attack and defense. All hits have to be allocated to Air units.
Remove all aircrafts casualties.
3- All Strategic bombers A4 D1 (and TacBs A3-4 D3?) roll attack and defense. All hits are allocated normally.
4- All other units roll.
Remove all regular casualties.

Basically, it is like giving first strike (surprise strike) roll against airplanes to Fgs and TcBs on the first combat round.
If StB is shot down by Fg or TcB, it cannot roll for attack or defense.
Otherwise, it makes a normal @4 attack or @1 defense.
Of course, you can always sacrifice a Fg or TcB as casualty, so StB can survive and make its attack roll.

Here is an on going air battle during each combat round:

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D1 CM1 Cost 4, 1 hit,
Each round, up to 2 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, works similar to OOB AAA but can defend each combat round.
Stop any blitz, and defend itself @1 against enemy’s ground units, if no attacking air unit is present.
Can move during combat move phase, can be taken as casualty (owner’s choice).

FIGHTER A3 D4 M4, SBR A2 D2 Cost 8
Air combat unit, Fighter as an Air Superiority aircraft: All “1” and “2” rolls are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available, then AAA, and finally other kind of units (owner’s choice).
Fighter as part of an extended Air Defense System:
1942.2, 1 Fg can scramble from an Air Base/Victory City.
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2.

Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

TACTICAL BOMBER A4 D3 M4 Cost 10
All “1” rolls are allocated to any aircraft OR ground units of your choice,
All “2” rolls are allocated to any ground units of your choice.
This can makes for Tactical Bomber as a “Dive Bomber” and “Tank Buster”:

1942.2, 1 TcB can scramble from an Air Base/Victory City.

SBR/TcBR Attack @1 first strike,
Allowed to do escort mission of Strategic Bomber without doing Tactical Bombing Raid on Air Base or Naval Base,
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
Cannot do interception mission on defense,
TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

Strategic BOMBER A4 D1 M6 Cost 10
All “1” rolls are allocated to any aircraft OR ground units of your choice.

Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR*)/ TBR : Attack @1 first strike against up to 2 fighters, whichever the lesser, similar to AAA.
SBR/TBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1331015#msg1331015

SBR/TcBR escort and intercept combat values:
Fighter: Attack 2 Defense 2
Tactical Bomber: Attack 1 first strike Defense 0
Strategic Bomber: Attack 1 first strike , as AA gun against up to 2 Fgs, Defense 0
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.

I would allow 2 types of defensive maneuvers for aircraft.
DEFENSIVE MANEUVERS allowed for 2 or 3 types of aircraft:

Aerial Retreat for attacking planes (all aircrafts can retreat while letting ground units pursuing battle),

Limited landing in a just conquered territory (which includes at least 1 ground unit): 1 plane (either Fighter or Tactical Bomber), as long as each unit can provide 1 extra movement point for this special landing.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469276#msg1469276

Cost is reduced to 8 and 10 because of the higher attrition rate with on going air combat.
According to this rule, a stack of fighters can destroy a stack of StBs with a lot of Infantry in the same TTy and left untouched the Infantry stack.

I found a post which say that SBR AAA kill ratio was 10% max:

What Larry says have flaws, and contradict to to base mechanic.

It should be like this:

1. Attacking fighter escorts roll dice, each 1 is hit, and defender move casualties to casualty zone.

2. Defending AA-gun roll dice, each 1 is hit, and then defending fighters roll dice, 2 or less is hit. Attacker choose his casualties.

3. Surviving bombers roll SBR dice against factories.

In real world, the attacking airfleet would first face the intercepting fighters, and then the escort fighters would do dog-fight. Later, the bombers would face AA-fire at the target. This AA-fire killed historically less than 10 % of the aircrafts. Using Larrys rule where AA-guns target bombers, you could be lucky and roll two 1’s and kill both attacking bombers, and get an unhistoric result of thousands bombers killed and no harm to the factories. Since its an abstract game, let the attacker pick a fighter as casualty to represent a % loss, and still have bombers survive to SBR.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1706&start=8
He is talking about an older version of SBR (AA50 Anniversary).

You guys are gonna get my thread removed with that kind of talk. Remember what happened to the concentration camp house rule thread…. ZAP!

Unfortunately leaving it for a week isn’t an option.  We could take pictures and reset it, but the players tend to change based on who is available.

I like the grand battle idea, we may give that a whirl.

IMO, keeping the Japanese focus on the American threat and the Chinese irritant is the preferred way to keep Japan out of Moscow… pretty much the way if happened historically.

If we find those two factors consistently being so minor that strategic adventurism prevails for the Japanese player then I’d lean towards beefing up his Pacific opponents versus “treaty handcuffs”.

Commanders (based on d12 system)
Each major power can have one or more military commanders that affect the outcome of battles. Each turn one commander unit is placed in a territory you wish to attack and can affect a +1 modifier on attack or defense for the sum of combat units equal to its leadership value for the duration of combat rounds. Each nation begins with commanders as follows:

Germany:
Hitler          8
Manstein    9
Runstedt    8
Rommel    10
Guderian    6

Italy:
Kesselring    7
Badoglio      4

Finland
Mannerheim    6

U.S.S.R:
Stalin              7
Zhukov          8
Timoshenko  7

United Kingdom:
Montgomery      7
Alexander          5

Japan:
Tojo                  7
Yamamoto*    10
Nagumo*          8
Yamashita        7

U.S.A.
Patton              9
Eisenhower    8
Nimitz*          7
Macarthur      7

Note: The engaged commander remains in the territory till the end of the turn. If enemy forces choose to counterattack and capture the territory  then that commander is considered killed in battle and cannot be replaced. All Leaders can only affect land battles except the leaders with * which can effect battles on the sea.

You mean bells of war?

Must have been an earlier post I can’t read now, but what were these new house rules you refer to? I can sense that one of them is no Japanese first turn advantage against UK targets. Any others?