• Thank you for the suggestions and the critical questions on my play.

    I finished a game (30bid, with 18 bid Taranto+North Africa+ 12 bid Chinese inf) to test Zhukov44’s suggestion, in particular, I stack Yunnan with the following units by the end of R3:
    Russia 2tank, 5mech, 1fig
    China: 21inf
    UK: 3AA, 8inf, 4mech, 2fig, 1tact
    ANZAC: 3fig
    This brings down Japan’s winning odd below 50-50.
    Japan can attack with 16inf, 1mech, 7art, 1tank, 11fig, 8tac, 3bomb

    –--------------------------------------

    US1 builds 2 carrier in Pacific, putting maximum pressure on Japan sea, forcing Japan to return its navy home.
    US2 builds 5fig+1tact in Pacific to keep pressure on Japan sea to focus Japan either not to build factory on mainland or to abandon Philippines.
    US3 sends 5fig+1tack to Buryatia, and builds bombers in East coast, so that they can come to Moscow by US5.

    India will keep producing land units; ANZAC will keep producing subs to covey Japan’s coastal money.

    — However, Moscow’s defense is quite weak and probably will fall in G6.

    turn3.2 Yunnan stack before J3 attack.jpg

  • '17

    Situation dictates of course. C2 may not be the best time to stack Yunnan. Myself, I like to keep shoving everything and hope I slow down Japan’s movement forward of fodder so it flitters away.

    Maybe not on a table top game, but on triplea live games (not the expert league players), Japan is being taken out in KJF strategies by simply just shoving everything. Japan runs out of ground units (cannon fodder) and is forced to decide which direction to go. Japan might take out a stack somewhere with it’s giant air force but it can’t hit everywhere at the same time. For instance, Russia walks into Korea/Manchuria the turn right after Yunnan gets stacked while the US moves into position for islands. China is automatically getting 3 IPCs = 1 infantry due to Russia helping while Japan has lost 6 IPCs in territories unless it gets it back. If Japan doesn’t move it’s starting troops into position to hold Yunnan because of Russia, than China has a better chance of holding Yunnan.

    Also, the amount of units you’re stacking in Yunnan and still losing badly makes me think your dice throwing skills need some improvement. Where are your UK India forces at? Do you have UK mech infantry to clean up in the scenario as described?

    On Saturday 8 October in a table top game, some of my defending dice in a battle (Belarus location) were like 14 infantry. I rolled a complete miss with them the 1st round whereas my opponent rolled practically all hits which was also unlikely. Sometimes a strategy doesn’t matter if your dice are super awful. It’s a dice game, just the way it is.

    Playing table top is definitely a completely different game than triplea where I think the dice software has less outliers than actually throwing dice.

    An example, I bought some of those gimmick battle dice for fun. I threw one of them 100x and counted all of the 6s and all of the 1s with the cool looking Iron Cross on it. Guess what, the 6 came up 20% more often. This has to do with gravity and no influence of other dice. The 6 pip side is not as heavy.

  • '17

    @taamvan:

    Japan still has the luxury of completely ignoring you also and taking India with ease–the planes can help defend and the stack lacks punch power (since the Rus has no cannon fodder and China has no strike and UK has no clean path to reinforce or money).   In that case, the stack gets isolated and not reinforced, so Japan only needs to contain it, not destroy it in detail.

    When I do the early take down of India, I have a problem of holding it. India gets liberated immediately. I might take it back, but then it gets liberated again because the player keeps enough troops in w. India. But it makes it easier for me to simultaneously get China under control.

  • '17

    @PainState:

    @Zhukov44:

    @PainState:

    If you insist on stacking Yunnan then let me propose a curve ball you can throw at Japan.

    China can move into Burma. Stack Burma instead of Yunnan with the China forces. Let China stack Burma and UK stack in Calcutta waiting for the counter attack.

    If China does that, their stack will end up stuck in Burma, cut off from the rest of China.

    Well, ok. I thought the entire purpose of stacking Yunnan was to protect India. Let China bleed in Burma as UK stacks India for the counter attack or inevitable Calcutta Crush. Either way, this is all about India.

    It’s not just about India. It’s also about Japan’s coastal territories being overran by China. Once the coastal Victory Cities are liberated, the US can practically switch to spending 95-100%  towards the Europe board.

    If Japan suicides pretty much all of it’s ground and takes lots of air hits to get Yunnan, then it’s also way behind for driving towards India; especially if the US is going after Japan first. You don’t want to just fall back and let Japan easily take territories without losing lots of fodder. Remember Japan has to build factories and mech to replenish. It’s harder than say Germany fighting to re-take Normandy which is just 2 spaces away from a Major IC.


  • @Ichabod:

    Also, the amount of units you’re stacking in Yunnan and still losing badly makes me think your dice throwing skills need some improvement. Also, where are your UK India forces at? Do you have UK mech infantry to clean up in the scenario as described?

    Thanks Ichabod.  There should be 1 tank+mech in India.  I forgot to put them there in UK2.

    Actually my Yunnan stack killed most of the Japanese fighters and some tactical bombers. In my revised game (pic in reply#13) with the huge Yunnan stack Japan was neutralized in Asia.  However I lost the game in Europe.  In the first two turns US fully produced in Pacific (1st turn: 3 carrier; 2nd turn: 2 tact + 5 fighters).  In turn 3, seeing Japan lost most of the force in Asia, US began to produce in Europe.

    However, Germany had already produced 6 bombers (G1 produced 2 and lost 1, G2 produced 1, G4 produced 2) by the end of G4.  Plus Germany’s cruiser (& transport) in sz112, US was just 1 turn behind on sailing to Gibraltar.  Italy mobile forces kept clearing UK units coming up Caucasus, so that Germany could focus on Moscow.  In G6 Moscow fell.

    This makes me reflect that, whether (1) I should devote so many Russian units to stack Yunnan (2tank, 5mech, >=1fighter), but even slightly reducing Russian support units in China can largely affect Yunnan defense in J3; and (2) whether in US2, I should produce a full-loaded carrier in Europe plus one transport despite KJF, so that I can sail to Gibraltar in US3 before Germany gets the critical number of bombers by G4?

    note that UK was heavily producing in Persia and Iraq – UK just produced in Britain to counter Sealion pressure from sz112 in Europe.  The pic below shows the end of round 2 in Europe.

    tun2 end Europe.jpg


  • @Ichabod:

    An example, I bought some of those gimmick battle dice for fun. I threw one of them 100x and counted all of the 6s and all of the 1s with the cool looking Iron Cross on it. Guess what, the 6 came up 20% more often. This has to do with gravity and no influence of other dice. The 6 pip side is not as heavy.

    haha, that perhaps explains why when Moscow gets SBRed, the AA-guns’ “1” usually don’t work well and bombers usually hit “5” and "6"s!

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    ok your Yunnan stack is awesome.  I did a J1 (167) and ive got no troops left to oppose a stack.


  • @taamvan:

    ok your Yunnan stack is awesome.  I did a J1 (167) and ive got no troops left to oppose a stack.

    Yes, actually in case it’s a standard J1 attack (where Japan takes HK and Borneo), Japan should have no land force left to take Yunnan in J2.  And China can even move its fighter to Yunnan to increase the chance that Russian air survives the J3 Yunnan attack. 
    Again my problem is how to coordinate Moscow and American purchase.  In order to survive beyond G6, perhaps Russia cannot buy too many artillery in Moscow.  And for US, I am thinking whether I should divert one full-loaded carrier purchase to Europe in the first 2 turns so that US3 move to Gibraltar - it might be beneficial to attract Germany to lose 2 bombers to attack it?

    If Japan doesn’t attack the Yunnan stack in J3, UK can take FIC if Japan doesn’t fly some fighters there, and Shan state is protected by these UK force by J5 (so Japanese planes cannot land there).  If the Japanese force wants to go India by sea, then first they need to abandon Japan sea under American pressure, the Indian British and French destroyers can block them for a turn, then Russia takes FIC, and UK Yunnan force can move to Burma to retake India.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Ichabod:

    When I do the early take down of India, I have a problem of holding it. India gets liberated immediately. I might take it back, but then it gets liberated again because the player keeps enough troops in w. India. But it makes it easier for me to simultaneously get China under control.

    I’ve noticed this outcome also. My response has been to build some more ICs, especially one on Malaya even when the troops aren’t going to be useful for taking India. The trouble then becomes holding those ICs, particularly from a USN sitting in SZ54. I like to have a fleet off Java because it blocks 3/4 of the money islands from Australia as well as blocking the Malaya peninsula. I don’t like an IC on Kwangtung so much because that mostly fights China and is more vulnerable to an Allied landing than on Shantung. SZ35 normally needs a blocker.

    Knowing you are going to build the IC in Malaya, you might as well do it as early as possible and you may have some extra troops for the India take down.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Still not sure about the stack R1, but recent G40s are a reminder that this area is critical.  During this last J1 (167.t3) I took my objectives (Malaya, HK, Borneo) but all UK needed to do is push back and they retook Malaya, China holds Yunnan (without the stack!).  This coming turn I get to blow up a lot of stray ships and blockers, but I’ve got nothing left on the mainland and because FiC wasn’t secure, I didn’t drop the factory there (Kwangsi was also insecure, having only planes and 2 land units to protect the bomber base) its in HK.

    Maphead is doing the ANZAC Fighters/American Carriers KJF strategy, he played some awesome blocks on Z2 that are going to prevent me from destroying the US 1/2 fleet at Carolines.    Right away, Japan is on the defense.    Since I’ve blown the J1 several times by leaving insufficient forces on Japan to ward of an immediate-step-up–I bought more subs, extra carrier, etc.


  • I have some reflections on how Japan could counter Yunnan stack: two conditions are required
    (A) the whole Japanese air force annihilating the Szechwan force in J2; and
    (B) taking Yunnan with land force in J2 and holding it before UK2.

    J2-3 DOW will make both conditions easier to attend as all J1 bombers can be directed to Yunnan, and the Kiangsi force can prepare for a J2 Yunnan attack, backed up by the two potential J1 transport forces in Kwangsi if necessary (those forces not attacing Philippine in J1).
    Once China cannot take Yunnan back in C2, UK cannot fly 3 air units in Yunnan against J3 Yunnan attack, and would not move into Yunnan in UK2.  Then the Yunnan stack cannot be formed.  And Japan will have a stronger land force to march to India.

    @taamvan:

    Still not sure about the stack R1, but recent G40s are a reminder that this area is critical.

    I think the Russian 2tank+2mech are crucial in making Japan costly in attacking Szechwan in J2.  
    Say, if Szechwan has 10inf+1fig, Japan only loses 4 fig to take it.  If Szechwan has 10inf+2mech+2tank+1fig, Japan will lose 7 fig to take it.  If there are bid inf units in Szechwan, roughly each bid inf unit will cost 1 additional Japanese fighter.

    Here come some questions that I wish to ask for your comments: assume that Germany persuades Dark skies, Russia moves mechs+tanks to Kaza/Sikang, and withdraws from Amur, and US would probably go for KJF.

    (1)  Would you attack the Szechwan stack with Japanese air (assume China retakes Yunnan in C1)?  If yes, how many Japanese planes are you willing to sacrifice to eliminate the Szechwan force, or at least make sure no Chinese units can retake Yunnan in C2?

    (2)  As UK, once your battleship survives in turn 1, would you move it to Queensland or to Europe?  Since the battleship cannot help in Pacific attack, I am thinking whether I should move it to Gibraltar through South Africa, so US can build ~20IPC more in Pacific in earlier turns.

    (3)  As US, in case Japan stack the fleet on seazone 36 as in standard play, would you take Caroline or go to Queensland in turn 2?

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    I’m not sure I agree that japan has to hit the Szechuan stack.

    (1)  If you put all your eggs in this basket, then, everything.  All the pairs (7 pairs) and up to 2 more fighters and 4 SBs with 6 or more ground units.  If they can take out all your planes and the Russians then that was a big win.  And the attacker can retreat after he sees how it goes.

    (2) If youre playing sea in Southafrica and you kept your transport alive at Persia, then there is a cool little fleet with this in the Red Sea (see Ukreig).    ANZAC is so thinly defended, last game (167) this BB stood at Western Australia Airbase with 5 other ships of all nations.

    (3) You cant cross the middle so you have to choose some other direction or just sit there.    game (166) maphead used the 2 Anzac ships to screen a US take of Carolines, so I couldn’t blast his 1/2 fleet.  Just have to dance all over picking off his ships and doing attrition.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @hcp:

    how to coordinate Moscow and American purchase.  In order to survive beyond G6

    You want to time it so your fighters (including the fighters you use to stack Yunnan) can to Moscow before G6.  If you’re having trouble holding Moscow, you could try a UK2 Persia factory (followed by fig buys).  Sending 5 mech 2 arm to China is probably more than you need and more than you can afford to send, since holding Moscow is pretty much your highest priority.  Complicating matters even more is if USA is playing a KJF in the Pacific, you actually want Japan to risk their air attacking your mainland stacks…  This implies some Allied risk because sometimes Axis will take the gamble and get lucky and lose less material than they should have.

    As far as how Axis can get past a Yunnan stack…

    1. build up a big Japan stack on Kweichow (while holding down FIC with the help of fighters).  Even if you can’t attack Yunnan proper because the other Allies are helping China too much, you can trade and eventually march on Sinkiang and cut off the Chinese army from the rest of China.

    2. use your navy (and perhaps an air and/or naval base) to put pressure on India itself so that UK needs to divert resources from the Yunnan stack to protect India, making protecting both objectives unfeasible.


  • @Zhukov44:

    1. use your navy (and perhaps an air and/or naval base) to put pressure on India itself so that UK needs to divert resources from the Yunnan stack to protect India, making protecting both objectives unfeasible.

    Thanks Taamvan and Zhukov.

    Now I realize the power of the naval base in FIC/Hainan - it forces the India troops to back down from China.  (From what I observe, J2 DOW and clearing sea zones 37,38, 41, 42 threatens the J3 takeover of Calcutta).

    Zhukov, might I ask that, under such FIC/Hainan naval base case, are there conditions that you would still consider stacking Yunnan using the remaining troops (ANZAC, Russia, Chinese, … and potential the 4 UK mech)?  I wish to see if there are other ways to delay the J5 India fall (by land).

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Once the UK leaves Burma for China, it can’t really ever come home.  Like we’ve concluded, you can maybe keep Yunnan (+7~ China money per turn, China thrives) or maybe India (Lose a whole minor power, give Japan a bonus, a MiC, a naval base, and 6-7 more in just land) but not both.

    Once Japan takes down India, the Near East then Moscow are next.  They use the Naval Base to take Africa/Egypt/Persia and they use the factory to rebuild the stack of tanks to help Germany finish Moscow off.

    Bombay is just much more valuable to the allies and the axis than anything in China.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @hcp:

    Zhukov, might I ask that, under such FIC/Hainan naval base case, are there conditions that you would still consider stacking Yunnan using the remaining troops (ANZAC, Russia, Chinese, … and potential the 4 UK mech)?  I wish to see if there are other ways to delay the J5 India fall (by land).

    This depends on many factors, including what Japan and USA are doing (is USA going KJF?, did Japan move all their land units south or are they keeping some units up north to face Siberians?, are the Japanese stacked at Human or Kweichow?).  Generally speaking, it’s more important to defend India.  But if you can defend India and still stack Yunnan, it might be worth it.  You don’t need 50/50 odds, in many cases, especially in kjf, it’s still worth stacking Yunnan if Japan attacking Yunnan will result in a net negative tuv exchange.  But note that if you take this risk (inviting a high-risk Japanese attack) you can’t assume these fighters on Yunnan will be available to you later to defend Moscow.

    It seems to me that if Japan wants India bad enough it’s usually possible for them to take it on J5, but that comes at a cost if Japan needs to spend resources on naval and air bases and neglect securing the crucial money islands to do so.

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