Hello all.  I saw from AAGamer’s average bid post that the discussion is shifting towards KGF and KJF.  I have a related question:

Assume 40.2 game background with 20 UK bid (98 sub, Alex art, Sudan art, Egypt tank), J1-G2 DoW that relax Allies movement constraints.  (Japan grasps islands; Germany goes Russia/Dark skies)
What are the usual, say, turn1 to turn3 US-UK buys for KGF and KJF strategy?  And what would be the key strategic objectives with those buys?  Thank you!

For KGF, I will try following US-UK buy plan:
turn 1
US-Europe: 1carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 transport (aim: Norway)
US-Pacific: 1 carrier
UK-Europe: 6inf, 1fighter (aim: defend London)
UK-Pacific: 3inf, 2art (India wall to retreat to middle east soon)

turn2
US-Europe: 1carrier, 2fig, 2 transport (aim: Norway)
US-Pacific: 1 transport (move inf to ANZAC for defend)
UK-Europe: Persian factory, South Africa: 3 sub (aim: convey Italy)
UK-Pacific: 2inf, 1art

turn3
US-Europe: transports and land units (aim: Norway)
US-Pacific: 1 full-loaded carrier, 1 transport+land (build against Japan in sea and land)
UK-Europe: Iraq factory, sub for Italy, middle east production (aim: strong Allies ME)
UK-Pacific: 2inf

Any comments?

Thank you for your comments.

I initially think that the importance of Scandinavia in Europe is like money islands in Pacific, and US should try to take it before Germany builds enough bombers.  Then US can build MICs in Norway and Finland (like UK Persia-Iraq), not relying on transports too much.

However, if Germany leaves some inf in Finland, it will be difficult for the US to take and hold it, for example:

G1: produce 2 bombers, 2inf; leave 2inf in Norway/Finland; transport 2inf to Norway
G2: produce 1 bomber, 2inf; transport 2inf to Norway
G3: transport 1inf, 1art to Norway
G4: produce bombers

[Assuming J1/J2 Dow]
US1: produce 2 carriers, 1 destroyer, 1 transport
US2: produce 1 carrier+2fig, 2 transport, land units (Pacific: 1 carrier, 1 transport)
=> US4 there are just 8 land units landing in Norway
    but Germany can retake Norway with >3 bombers, >=5inf, art

I think the 15 IPC swing plus US’s MICs would justify Germany leaves some inf there.  And if this is the case, is an early US focus in Europe a viable strategy for Allies (especially seeing Germany purchasing 2 bombers in G1)?  What are your opinions?

Hello.  I would like to ask for tips on how Germany should use its Scandinavia troops.

Assuming normal G2-J1/2 DOW, what should Germany do with the Scandinavia troops (7 inf)?

Especially when Japan DOW early, US might bring some fleet to Gibraltar in turn 2/3. 
What should Germany do with the Scandinavia troops? to go all Russia and increase the G6 Moscow assault pressure, defend against (potential fake) American invasion, or others?

@Caesar:

@ShadowHAwk:

How about add 1 mech to burma for india.

Against dark skies the allies just need a bit more fleet to call the bombers out. Attack and you trade your bombers dont attack and ill invade you.

The one mech is a good idea too as I would instantly use that to get over to Persia and bring them into the fight.

Thanks  ShadowHAwk.  Mech is a good idea! 
Caesar: I am thinking one additional option that the Burma mech can do is to retake FIC from Japan in normal J1 attack (or attack Siam planes if there is no inf left in J1 Siam) .  Then we might delay the J2 MIC in FIC (or kill Japanese planes in Siam).

@Arthur:

Add in that most attacks against Moscow are happening on G4+, and it doesn’t have nearly as much impact as additional units to swing key battles during the first round.  An extra 20 PUs of bid results in an additional 20+ PU swing in net battle casualties, leading to a 40+ swing of units in key areas, leading to 60+ swing of units by the fifth turn.

AB Harris: might I ask where are those first round key battle areas that the bid can offer such large PU swings?  I can only identify North Africa sub+Tank+2 art to have such large effect.

If I have 40 bid, where should I put the 20 additional bid (besides the above North Africa units) to counter patient Dark Skies + J1 attack?

I like to use convey to stop Italy early in the game.  In case there is no sea lion, I will build subs in (US/UK) turn 2, then they can start conveying Italy from turn 4 onward (e.g. Russian sub in sz95; US sub in sz 93; UK subs in sz 97).

I think conveying Italy is a safe way to depict Axis income.  First, usually Med is under Allies control.  Second, it’s a more economically viable option to depict Axis income: comparing with 12 IPC bomber SBR:
bomber SBR: expected gain = 3.5 IPC +2 IPC- 1/6 chance AA gun * 12 IPC = 3.5 IPC
2 subs conveying: expected gain = 2 subs * 2 IPC = 4 IPC

However, I think it is not easy to do conveying to Germany and Japan.  For Germany, like Taamvan mentioned, there are not many convey zones.  For Japan, usually the Axis players in my game group build naval base in FIC in turn 2 and station the planes there.  If they see US building subs, they usually build air base in FIC in turn 3, protecting the whole East Asian coastal line from US conveying fleet.  I also wish to learn how to do conveying better.

@aagamerz13:

This seems like an easy strategy to counter.  According to odds calc, a bomber at cost 12 only beats 1inf + 1AAA about 28% of the time while costing 4 IPCs more.  2 bombers only beat 2inf + 1AAA about 38% of the time while costing 13 ipcs more.  So, this is not a great tradeoff for axis if other players make lots of inf.  The counter is for US/UK to go to Spain round 3.  Germany should only have 4 or 5 bombers in range so they cant attack the fleet on round 4.  USSR should be making all inf + 1 or 2 AAs per round.  Germany is in trouble as they have low ground units in Europe to counter because of the early bomber buys.

As Ichabod shows, Germany will be buying heavy land in G2-G3+.  Plus its superior starting land force which are good at attacking and defending, Russia who starts with only a lot of inf has low chance to catch up with Germany, not to mention Germany also have tact+fighters helping their defense.

@Ichabod:

@aagamerz13:

Germany is in trouble as they have low ground units in Europe to counter because of the early bomber buys.

This is the biggest misconnection about Dark Skies.
Dark Skies purchases is:

G1: 2 bombers / 1 sub. (G1 could also be 6 Artillery / 2 Infantry and it still be a Dark Skies Strategy)
G2-3: All Ground (maybe 1 destroyer)
G4: 3 Bombers / 3 tanks at Leningrad
G5+: 2 Bombers / Ground (And maybe a sub here and there) - Enough ground units are purchased to push Russia back and move into Bryansk, then Rostov, and hold Stalingrad with the threat of Italian can openers.

Italy also buys ground to help defend Europe too. If you think someone won’t maybe buy a stack of infantry right when 5 US transports make it to SZ 91, then yes, maybe you will have cracked it.

I don’t know how to defeat it, but I do know it’s not as simple as you think.

In my previous game, knowing KJF, my opponents purchase:
G1: 2bombers, 1tank
G2: 5mech+5tank, bomber
G3: 5mech+4tank
G4: 3tanks at Leningrad, 4mech+3tank at Germany
G5: 3tanks at Leningrad, 3tanks at Ukraine, 2bomber
G6+: 4bombers + some leftover land units

Just a curious question: why many Dark Skies buy one sub in first turn?  Normally UK has ~0 ships in Atlantic after moving into Med in UK1.

Thank you for all your response!

@Arthur:

In a traditional G40 match with no bid and no bizarre dice, I have yet to lose as Axis.

AB Harris: in your experience, how many bids do allies need to draw with the Dark-Skies+J1 strategy?  And for those  bid games that Allies, will the US focus more on Germany or Japan in the early games?

@ShadowHAwk:

He got bombers so call him out.
round 2 move your 2 carriers +4 air in US turn to gibraltar ( with the standard destroyer + cruisers and 2 transports )

ShadowHAwk: thanks for the advice - it seems your advice is an early-game full-KGF?  If yes, how many turns will you have before coming back to J1 Pacific?  and what would be the strategic objective to achieve in Europe before that?

To: Ichabod
Gargantua is probably right and the only person here who has the wherewithal to defeat this type of stuff.

Yes, I treasure everyone’s advice in helping me to improve my next Allies games.

The problem for me is that Germany doesn’t spam bombers right away in a well played Dark Skies game. Therefore, I don’t know the best formula for winning as the Allies. I suck at this game, even worse as the Allies.

My last game seems to inform me that, we cannot over-protect Moscow - you see my UK-Russian/ME troops cannot do against strong German stack. 
So I am thinking the allies are forced to make two decisions: first is to make Russia and ME “just enough” to defend, so that we can mobilize the largest amount of UK/US units to threaten Europe or East Asia.  And this comes the second decision: if you go for Europe, you will soon face crazy Japanese air+navy to take the last VC.  Otherwise, you face Germany bombers.  I am thinking which strategy will be better.

I’ve noticed that better players than me play slow and methodical to stall on whichever side I’m attacking. It’s annoying because they put themselves in a situation where their income is higher, they can defend, and then increase their TUV to the point that the Allies are just out built. If you let up against Japan because you’re scared that Germany is getting too powerful, still don’t let up. You won’t build enough US stuff in time to make a difference (hence your loaded carriers but not enough transports because you spent so much money on defense).

Yes, I will take your word of not to let up one side of the board.

Thank you for reply and suggestions!

Thanks for PainState who patiently read my game and pointed out my problems - the UK troops and planes stacking at Russia and ME doing nothing.  There are various places that I can attack where the Axis is weak: China, Japan sea, Med, Russian Far East.  My opponents successfully exploited my “defend Moscow first, Middle East second, KJF at all cost” mentality and won!

Thanks for Gargantua and wheatbeer’s advices.  I wonder if KGF first is a valid strategy in face of Dark Skies+J1?  For example at least to seize Scandinavia as a MIC production base for US in Europe.

Caesar: In my previous game, because of Germany bombers protecting Europe, Italy was very safe to fully produce 1tank+4mech from turn5+ to reinforce Germany land stack at Brysank, making Russia (with income~10) impossible to crack the Germany land force.  This gives me a lesson that even in KJF, there must be UK/US subs conveying Italy to v. low income!