AAR and AA50, 'A speedy game' Any tips..?



  • Hiya Forum,

    A quick question… when we play the game, we always seam to take hours and hours to play, and most times it’s too late to continue as the game has dragged on, so we just stop at a point of end of a round and pack it in ( due to it’s 3 in the morning of a solid 8 hour game ), and then we discuss what WOULD of happened if we continues, and how many more rounds it would take for each side to eventualy win.

    So how can we simply speed up things…? We hear it can be done in the tops of 3-4 hours. What are we doing wrong…? Did you ever have this problem…? How did you solve this and still keep it an exciting game?

    Thanks,

    Sala33.


  • Official Answers

    Play to 13 Victory Cities (or maybe even 12) and use the National Objectives.  The extra cash from the NOs will make it easier for the side that gets an advantage to finish off the other side more quickly.



    • It’s faster to play 1v1 than playing one person per country.

    • The player with the next upcoming turn should plot out as much as possible before their turns starts, especially their purchases. Unfortunately, many decision hinge on the outcome of the previous players turn so you can’t plot too much without the results from the prior turn.

    • Give everyone their own dice to roll and a place to roll them, like a small box.

    • Roll combat dice simultaneously.

    • Players focusing on the game, when it’s not their turn, speeds up play a LOT!

    • As with all board games, and I’ve played hundreds, everyone needs to focus on keeping the game moving or it will come to a crawl.

    In short, A&A will take a LONG time, usually no less than 5 hours when not playing a computerized version. G/L



  • Excluding the Combat Phase, we use a stopwatch and each player has 5 minutes to finish their turn.  They get their 1 minute warning.  It makes them get ready ahead of time too (with purchasing).

    Also, we don’t allow table talk (i.e. giving recommendations to other players during their turn).

    Helps a little.  But still takes long.



  • We have thought about using a stopwatch to stop length of time for each turn, but as P-Unit have also mentioned, even if you try to advance your turn by planning exactly what you buy so you’re readdy for your turn, it can change dromaticaly by the time battle commences, which means more thoughts and time.

    Reducing the city tokens will help as well.

    But if you both say it’s a 5 hour min game, then we’re not too far off. It’s not annoying, as we all love playing and enjoy it, we’re all thinker I guess and want to make sure what we all do it the right choice, or right gamble, and no stupid or missed moves!! It’s annoying not ending the game to solve a winning side.

    But thanks for the tips, we’ll put them actualy into action next time.

    However, of course, if all of us were all fighting players and we attacked no matter what, then it would speed up the game alot!!

    sala33



  • Someone in my playgroup made a “chart” that when we needed to quit playing for the night we can log which countries control which territories, where the units are located, etc.  Then, the next time we get together we set up the board to where we finished off last time.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Play to 10 VC in 1941.  Since the Allies start iwth 12 out of 18, that means the axis need 3 VC on round 1 to stop the allies from winning.

    Should produce a lot of 1 or 2 round games. 🙂

    For a longer game, I agree, 12 would do it.  Note however, the allies START with 12.

    BTW, you might want to do a modified version of VC for a win:  If the axis get 6 National Objectives by the end of any US/China round, they win.  If the allies ever get 7 National Objectives by the end of any German round, they win. (gives each side a chance to liberate before they lose.)



  • Here are some of the things we do in order to finish games in about five hours:

    1.  Increased number of victory cities from 18 to 21 by adding Cairo, Johannesburg, and Sarajevo.
    2.  14 Victory Cities at the end of any U.S./China turn is victory.
    3.  If victory not achieved after 4.5 hours, no new round can begin and 13 Victory Cities at the end of that round is enough for victory.  Otherwise, the game is a draw.
    4.  Added dice and assigned colors to hits:  white = 1, black =2, red =3, yellow =4.  Roll all dice at once (ally prepares dice while player is making combat moves).

    Results so far: Axis 2, Allies 2, Draw 1.
    Average time per game: 4 hours.

    Note:  We like things so far but are prepared to continue to adjust things (like the victory cities) as we play more.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I still think the simple solution is to use National Objectives instead of Victory Cities to shorten the game.  It also rewards you for taking away or getting the objectives.



  • Play to 10 VC in 1941.  Since the Allies start iwth 12 out of 18, that means the axis need 3 VC on round 1 to stop the allies from winning.

    Should produce a lot of 1 or 2 round games. Smiley

    For a longer game, I agree, 12 would do it.  Note however, the allies START with 12.

    BTW, you might want to do a modified version of VC for a win:  If the axis get 6 National Objectives by the end of any US/China round, they win.  If the allies ever get 7 National Objectives by the end of any German round, they win. (gives each side a chance to liberate before they lose.)

    I’m glad to see someone else playing with fewer Victory Cities and using Victory Cities are a primary win condition. 
    However, based on my own experience, fewer Victory Cities does not always translate into shorter games. 
    I play with 11/12 Victory Cities and in all honestly, it is VERY difficult to collect 11/12 Victory Cities when both sides are clicking and piloted by capable players.  More of our games have ended in concession than due to Victory Cities.  And they still take roughly the same amount of time.

    Remember, the same player never gets snakebitten twice.

    A better solution is to tell your friends to preplan their turns as soon as possible.  Generally Russia should have a good idea of what to do once Germany enters combat, Italy once UK goes, ect.  Build purchases rarely change (unless you unlock tech) and you should already have a feel for what territories you want to attack before the end of your opponent’s turn.

    I still think the simple solution is to use National Objectives instead of Victory Cities to shorten the game.  It also rewards you for taking away or getting the objectives.

    I like to play with both.



  • I’d say playing 1942 scenario also speeds the things. The clock stuff is good. I suggest paying 1 IPC for each minute played after time limit  😉



  • Me and my friends play a lot and the turns take forever, so i made a program that does all the banking, income, and territories calculations.  Its easy to use and works well and best of all it makes turns go much faster.  I highly suggest trying it out.  Both an .exe file and a .jar file are available at http://sites.google.com/site/dkat106inc/axis-and-allies-banker along with pictures.  Try it out and let me know what you think!



  • dkat106, thanks for the chart, will scoop into it when we next play.

    Funcioneta to mention after the time’s up any extra minuet is a loss of an IPC…that’s a good rule!!

    I was playing once on line A and A ( the revised board ) and against another player…and I kept on geting yelled at by taking too much time on moves and the player got winded up and ended up not continuing… I thought what a looser and why give so much bitterness to a game.

    I am sure Larry didn’t start these games to be quick and easy, so us deep thinkers can’t be blamed for good playing can we…??!



  • In twenty years of gaming, there is one rule that speeds games;

    We play 4 players face to face.
    We set 4.5 hour game limit. 
    We use all Axis go, then all Allies go.
    this adds a cool element to the game, everyone moving at once.
    before each turn there is a conference between Allies or Axis to consider the upcoming moves. 
    Its speeds things up considerably for face to face games.  Who wants to wait 45 minutes in between turns.
    We got this rule from AAHE the historic game, works great, thanks to IL and others great rule to add in face to face games.



  • We play 4 players face to face.
    We set 4.5 hour game limit.
    We use all Axis go, then all Allies go.
    this adds a cool element to the game, everyone moving at once.
    before each turn there is a conference between Allies or Axis to consider the upcoming moves.

    Could you please explain this in more detail? 
    Doesn’t the team going first always have the advantage?  How do you balance this out?



  • @TG:

    We play 4 players face to face.
    We set 4.5 hour game limit.
    We use all Axis go, then all Allies go.
    this adds a cool element to the game, everyone moving at once.
    before each turn there is a conference between Allies or Axis to consider the upcoming moves.

    Could you please explain this in more detail? 
    Doesn’t the team going first always have the advantage?  How do you balance this out?

    Yes, in the same respect as a normal move, tempo is dictated by the Axis on the move going first.  You lose individual turn position advantage,  to gain the time advantage element. 
    item) In the all Axis go, then all Allies go,
    if two players attack the same territory, the turn priority takes precedence. 
    The original order of play is the turn priority. 
    Ex: if, Germany and Italy arrive at the same Russian territory, Germany would determine its combat first.  The Italian player would resolve his other combats and comeback to this territory afterward.
    The Italian player resolves his combat on the Russian territory, following the German attack. 
    If there is no resulting combat, left for the Italian player then, he moves his units into the Russian territory, now coexisting in the territory with the German player. 
    item) This is why you provide a 5- min conference, prior to your turn move, to discuss attack vectors, who’s hitting what territory, and do you need two players to hit the same territory.  This play emphasis the Alliance aspect of the game.

    I am not sure I understood your question and provided enough detail.
    This idea was not our idea, we lifted it from AAHRE rules, to speed up our game.
    This play works for our group and has become our standard of play for each game session.  It save a lot of time, each player is busy attacking or defending constantly, with no wait times.  Prior to this, we would wait 45 min or more for each turn, in 4 player face to face games that we play.



  • I am not sure I understood your question and provided enough detail.

    Based on 1941, Germany and Japan go before the nations that are most apt to respond to them – Russia and USA.  So play balance is maintained.

    But what about Italy going before UK?  Doesn’t this give the Axis an unfair advantage by allowing Italy to sink UK’s navy and land in Egypt without fear of retaliation?



  • I tried this last weekend with AA50.  I was gaming with my teen son (who couldn’t stand A&A before AA50 mainly due to the time issue…and secondly because he didn’t “know what to do”  😢 ) and his teen cousin and myself and another 40+ year old dude and it worked great.

    My kid has begun to slowly like A&A since the release of AA50 (thanks to the National Objectives…says they help him "know what to do now”  :roll:  as if he’s some kind of idiot…anyway…back on subject) and with the all Axis than all Allies turn sequence from AAHRE it kept them both interested; they said “they felt like it was always their turn”  8-); and it really speeds up the game without jacking too much with the overall mechanics of the game.

    Granted I’ve only tried this turn sequence once so far, but so far I’m very pleased with the minor change.   😄  (BTW…we only used the turn sequence from AAHRE…and kept everything else per the new AA0 rules).   :roll:

    But what about Italy going before UK?  Doesn’t this give the Axis an unfair advantage by allowing Italy to sink UK’s navy and land in Egypt without fear of retaliation?

    This turned out to be a minor problem; pretty easy to recover from it.  Than again, maybe against more skilled players, this could jack with things, but so far…no big deal.  And its really no different than what happens to the UK fleet in AAR; Germany usually wipes out the med fleet first chance they get anyway.



  • This turned out to be a minor problem; pretty easy to recover from it.  Than again, maybe against more skilled players, this could jack with things, but so far…no big deal.  And its really no different than what happens to the UK fleet in AAR; Germany usually wipes out the med fleet first chance they get anyway.

    Let’s what effect Italy has going before UK.

    -  Since UK no longer threatens Italy’s Navy in Sz 14 T1, Germany has no incentive to sink the UK Cruiser + Destroyer in Sz 12.  This allows Germany the opportunity to sink UK’s navy in Sz 9, 6, and 2.

    -  Because Italy goes before UK they can sink UK’s navy in Sz 14 with Battleship, Cruiser, and fighter (optional).

    -  Since UK cannot reinforce Egypt, the Italians can easily take Egypt with a lone transport after the initial German attack.  If Germany brings sufficient forces to take Egypt, the Italians can take Trans Jordan instead (denying a landing strip for the British Bomber).

    -  The Pacific is unaffected by virtue of Japan going before UK in normal play

    Basically, UK begins the game without a Navy or Egypt.  Is this fair?

    Perhaps, to balance this out, you could allow combined assaults.  ie, a joint invasion like D-Day.  However, is this too powerful an effect for the Allies?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Well I can see the Japanese playing their turn during the German turn as long as they are not attacking the Soviets

    Then the Soviets and UK play

    and then the Italian and USA play

    so its: axis, allies, then mixed teams

    and done with hourglass that is layed on its side during combat rolls


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    i suggest this

    1941:
    Germany/Italy
    Soviet Union
    Japan
    United Kingdom/United States

    1942:
    Japan
    Soviet Union
    Germany/Italy
    United Kingdom/United States



  • That’s something else I forgot.  Japan can crush Russia’s stack in SSR and the Far East before the Russians can concentrate.  Japan must not be allow to attack Russia T1.



  • With only one game played like this so far, I don’t have an answer/idea about some of these “what if questions” concerning balance.  And maybe if the players I tried this with so far had been more skilled player’s things would have been MUCH different, but we just used the same turn order that is outlined in this set of rules and it didn’t really affect the overall balance of the game.

    Round 1 only;
    Russia
    Axis
    Allies
    Round 2 and beyond;
    Axis
    Allies

    The rules are not real clear; but we allowed all units in a single territory/sea zone to attack at the same time.

    Example; if the Germans had 3 infantry and 1 tank and 1 fighter and the Italians had 1 infantry and 1 tank all attacking the Russians in a single territory we rolled all the attacking units (4inf, 2 tanks and 1 fig) as one force against what ever units the Russians had.

    Early in the game this felt really strong; the Allies kept getting trounced in every battle.  But once the Allies consolidated their own forces a few turns later so that they could attack in the same “joint offensive” fashion, the Axis started getting trounced by over whelming odds too.

    No battle in this one game was SO powerful that it changed the overall flow/feel of the game.

    But, the rules are not written real clear as how to conduct combats. And I have been doing some reading on the forums for house rules since than and it looks like the idea is to have the individual powers attack separately (even if they are in the same territory) instead of “jointly” as we did.

    One thing is for certain about using this all Axis all Allies turn sequence is that it speeds up the game by at least 30% to 40%.  Our turns for six players per the official rules take an average of 1 hour (+20 minutes…1hr to 1hr 20mins).  With this turn order the average time was about 40 minutes (+/- 10 minutes…30mins to 50mins).  And the 20 or so minutes that you are “waiting for your turn” goes real fast.  You don’t have enough time to “get bored” because your never really “waiting for your turn” because you have to keep looking at the board to figure out your purchases/strategy/moves while rolling your defensive dice too.

    All of the other details about balance; I don’t know what to think about that…YET.  But one thing is for certain, I’m going to play AA50 with this turn sequence several more times before I even consider a bid to correct any imbalance.

    But, so far (IMO) the increased speed of the game alone is worth the chance of unbalancing the game.

    (IMO) AA50 is just too long of a game to play; I don’t think we’ve had a game yet finish in less than 5 hours.  In AAR our LONGEST games would last 5 hours but most of them ran closer to 4 hours (or less).  So far all of our AA50 games have been lasting 6+ hours (and usually much longer).  I’m sure we could play for less victory cities, but I just never really got into playing for nothing but a total victory for some reason.  I’ve always favored the “till someone cries” (surrenders) type of games.  The strategies are really different when you play till “the bitter end” instead of to a set (low) number of victory cities.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    your supposed to attack individually even if you play the turns together.

    Also,remember your using the Revised turn sequence and not AA50.

    try this:

    Germany–Japan

    Soviet Union–UK

    Italy then USA/China

    This could minimize the impact on the game, except in the 1941 scenario this allows the japanese to attack Russia first
    and in 1942 this allows the Germans to fight first ( this however is more realistic)



  • All of the other details about balance; I don’t know what to think about that…YET.  But one thing is for certain, I’m going to play AA50 with this turn sequence several more times before I even consider a bid to correct any imbalance.

    Thank you I appreciate that.  So you’re saying even with combined turns, the game still takes about 5 hours?  That’s sort of refreshing.

    Imperious Leader,

    I like your joint turn session.  It seems like a good compromise the to without including a bid or something extra.  It would be cool if each side could go at once, but obviously I think this requires some reworking of the game board.


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