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Chinese Fighter Rule question


  • 2015 '14

    Hey there,

    I have seen several games where the Chinese fighter was landed in e.g Burma.
    However the 1940 second edition rulebook says:

    At the beginning of the game, China has a United States
    fighter unit located on the map. This represents the American
    volunteer group the Flying Tigers. This fighter is considered
    part of the Chinese forces for purposes of movement and
    combat. It cannot leave the territories that Chinese occupation
    is restricted to, even to attack and return.
    If it is destroyed, the
    US player cannot replace this fighter unit for China.

    So how does it work? May the e.g. land in UK controlled Burma?
    May it go to defend Moscow?
    Can it even go to raid transports around the Indian coast?

    Thanks for any clarification and advice in advance.
    Tobias


  • 2015 '14

    Sorry, just realized I should have posted here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.0


  • Customizer

    The Chinese fighter has the same restrictions as the rest of the Chinese forces. The only territories they are allowed to occupy outside of China itself (those territories with a Chinese Nationalist symbol printed on them) are Burma and Kwangtung. So yes, the fighter can land in UK controlled Burma.
    The Chinese fighter can NOT go to defend Moscow or hunt transports.

    That second part can be maddening. I was playing Allies in one game and the Chinese had driven the Japanese back and were actually occupying some of the coastal territories. I had the Chinese fighter right there and there was a couple of unescorted Japanese transports just sitting there, I think it was in SZ 19, and I could do nothing about them. There were no other Allied planes or ships in range to get those transports so they just sat there mocking me.

    We have dabbled with a house rule where if China controls all the Chinese territories, then Chinese forces can venture past Chinese borders. That would mean the Chinese fighter could fly out, attack Japanese ships then fly back to China. The main reason was certain games where Japan was busy at sea or something and the Chinese managed to capture all Chinese territories. This ends up with a large amount of Chinese troops staging in Manchuria yet due to the rules they can not advance into Korea. That just seems silly to me.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I can’t picture China NOT annexing Korea, but rules are rules.

    Yes, the Chinese fighter (and infantry/artillery for that matter) may go to Burma and Kwangtung.


  • 2015 '14

    Ahh ok, I must have overlooked Burma, alright, thanks for you support!


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Burma is a great place to hide the Chinese fighter early in the game!



  • @Gargantua:

    Burma is a great place to hide the Chinese fighter early in the game!

    Yep, I love it.


  • 2015 '14

    @Gargantua:

    Burma is a great place to hide the Chinese fighter early in the game!

    Some weeks ago I would have asked why but then I saw games where Japan fearlessly attacked a 13 ZH inf stack with air only^^. However this one contained the fighter and I think it was good in that spot.


  • '13

    @Gargantua:

    Burma is a great place to hide the Chinese fighter early in the game!

    Ha ha, nice.



  • @knp7765:

    We have dabbled with a house rule where if China controls all the Chinese territories, then Chinese forces can venture past Chinese borders. That would mean the Chinese fighter could fly out, attack Japanese ships then fly back to China. The main reason was certain games where Japan was busy at sea or something and the Chinese managed to capture all Chinese territories. This ends up with a large amount of Chinese troops staging in Manchuria yet due to the rules they can not advance into Korea. That just seems silly to me.

    If you’re using this house rule, you should add one where IF China reclaims its capital, it has to build industrial complexes in order to place units normally, and loses its “build anywhere” ability.  It only makes sense, if you’re going to allow them to leave China.  It can keep the bonus for the road, but not build other types of units due to the Chinese Civil War.  Just an idea.


  • Customizer

    @robbie358:

    @knp7765:

    We have dabbled with a house rule where if China controls all the Chinese territories, then Chinese forces can venture past Chinese borders. That would mean the Chinese fighter could fly out, attack Japanese ships then fly back to China. The main reason was certain games where Japan was busy at sea or something and the Chinese managed to capture all Chinese territories. This ends up with a large amount of Chinese troops staging in Manchuria yet due to the rules they can not advance into Korea. That just seems silly to me.

    If you’re using this house rule, you should add one where IF China reclaims its capital, it has to build industrial complexes in order to place units normally, and loses its “build anywhere” ability.  It only makes sense, if you’re going to allow them to leave China.  It can keep the bonus for the road, but not build other types of units due to the Chinese Civil War.  Just an idea.

    Yeah, we thought about that too. We have even considered that once they have an industrial complex, they could be allowed to build other units, but on a limited scale. No naval units, but perhaps allow them mechs, tanks, fighters and maybe even bombers or tac bombers.
    As for leaving China, I’m thinking that would also be restricted to the Pacific board. They could help clear Japanese units out of Mongolia and Eastern Russia and perhaps help the British clear SE Asia, but no further. The idea of a large Chinese army marching on Berlin or Rome just seems ludicrous.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    IMHO, I would limit China to Korea, Mongolia and China itself.

    IMHO, I would limit China to mechanized infantry and armor if you allowed them to capture or build an industrial complex at some point during the game.  It fails the logic test, if America cannot figure out how to get more volunteer pilots to China, how can China manage to hobble up some planes?  Trucks and tanks can usually be repaired from broken vehicles that are captured, and then pressed back into service.  IMHO, once a plane crashes there isn’t enough left to build a new one out of parts.

    IMHO, I would leave infantry/artillery builds alone then.  You run into having an issue where you have to justify why they suddenly have to be produced somewhere, where before they did not.  (Actually, I am a long constituent of the theory that infantry should always be allowed to be built in any native land territory you own, up to the value of the territory you want to build them in.  But that is a WHOLE other argument and one I will probably be out numbered on 15 to 1 anyway, so I don’t want to discuss it.)


  • Customizer

    @Cmdr:

    IMHO, I would limit China to Korea, Mongolia and China itself.

    Why not Eastern Russia or SE Asia?
    @Cmdr:

    IMHO, I would limit China to mechanized infantry and armor if you allowed them to capture or build an industrial complex at some point during the game.  It fails the logic test, if America cannot figure out how to get more volunteer pilots to China, how can China manage to hobble up some planes?  Trucks and tanks can usually be repaired from broken vehicles that are captured, and then pressed back into service.  IMHO, once a plane crashes there isn’t enough left to build a new one out of parts.

    Here’s an interesting idea. Perhaps China could have a sort of National Advantage of salvage. Any battle where China wins that involves Japanese artillery, mechs or tanks, the Chinese can salvage those units for their own army. Example: Chinese attack a Japanese force with 2 infantry, 1 artillery and 1 tank. China wins. Of course the Japanese infantry are dead, but when the Chinese take that territory, they can place 1 Chinese artillery and 1 Chinese tank with their remaining troops. It could also happen if Japan attacks China and loses the battle.
    @Cmdr:

    IMHO, I would leave infantry/artillery builds alone then.  You run into having an issue where you have to justify why they suddenly have to be produced somewhere, where before they did not.  (Actually, I am a long constituent of the theory that infantry should always be allowed to be built in any native land territory you own, up to the value of the territory you want to build them in.  But that is a WHOLE other argument and one I will probably be out numbered on 15 to 1 anyway, so I don’t want to discuss it.)

    Someone came up with an interesting idea for that. Recruitment Centers (RCs). They are much cheaper than ICs, about 5-6 IPCs, and you can place them in any original territory. You can ONLY build infantry at RCs. As for build limits, either use the IPC value of the territory OR treat them like Minor ICs with each RC being able to muster up to 3 infantry but only being placed on territories with an IPC value of 2 or more. Also, RCs could be placed on islands.
    So, the first option would allow a greater range of placement. For example, the US could place an RC on Hawaii and recruit 1 infantry per turn.
    The second option would be a little more restrictive, but each RC could generate 3 infantry. So the US could have RCs on Alaska or Philippines and pump out 3 infantry per turn, but they couldn’t place one on Hawaii since it’s only worth 1 IPC.
    The first option is probably more realistic.
    In regards to large IPC territories such as Eastern, Central and Western US, Great Britain, Japan, etc., there would be a rule that no RCs may be placed in territories that already have an IC. The reason being that ICs can already generate infantry so you don’t need an RC there. That keeps stuff like the US plunking down 30 infantry all at once in Eastern US from happening.
    While I say the RCs may be placed on islands, that wouldn’t include the DEI, since those are Dutch possessions that are commandeered by UK Pacific or ANZAC and not original UK Pacific or ANZAC territories. One loophole is Borneo because it is an original UK Pacific territory. So, UK Pacific could build an RC there and plunk down 4 infantry per turn. I suppose you could say “No RCs permitted until at war”. Then if Japan takes too long to get Borneo once they are at war with UK Pacific, tough luck. That would also prevent the US from over-fortifying the Philippines.
    Of course, China would not need RCs and could not buy them anyway like they can’t buy ICs.
    I think RCs would be like AA guns and be automatically destroyed once an enemy takes control of that territory.
    As for what to use to represent an RC, we would have to design something ourselves for now. Perhaps some little chip or token. With HBG constantly expanding their variety of pieces, perhaps one day they will make something we could use in national colors. Like little tents or buildings, but different from the ICs.
    What do you think of this idea? It would sure be a good way for Russia to get infantry way out east. Maybe UK could use a few extra troops in Africa. At least it would be a little cheaper way to defend some certain areas, like Egypt.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I dunno, knp, why not Eastern Russia or SE Asia?

    I like the salvage question, but I would say roll a d6 for each mech or armor destroyed by Chinese forces, on a roll of 1, that unit is now Chinese.  It’s same odds as SBR getting killed by AA Guns so there is some limited precedent for that target number.  It’s horrible justification, but best I could do on the spur of the moment. lol


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