Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40

  • '17 '16

    If fighters can target enemy aircrafts, that will model a continuing dogfight every turn. I also suggest AAguns fire every round, together with the rest of the defending units, and not preemptive, not in land combat anyway. SBR is another business

    It will go like this
    One time air to air combat and one time SBR of facilities

    Naval combat and landing, with defending artillery preemptive fire, modelling the coast fortress, and Battleship shore bombardment

    Debarked land units all attack on 1 the first round. Marines A2 alone or A3 with Battleship support
    General combat
    Inf A2 alone or A3 with Art, Art A3, Tanks A2 alone or A3 with Tac, and absorb two hits
    Fighter A1 and can target enemy aircrafts, owners choice
    Tacs strafe land units at A3, and Strategic Bombers carpet bomb the infantry stack by rolling 3 dice, A1 + A1 + A1 targeting the infantry

    Defenders roll
    All land units defend on 3 or less
    AAgun roll a die to every plane, limited at 3 dice pr AAgun, the OOB rules,
    Fighters roll D2 and target enemy aircrafts, owners choice
    Tacs D4 and Strat Bombers carpet bomb the infantry with D1 + D1 + D1

    I don’t think it will be to strong to let the AAgun fire every round, since its no longer preemptive, and AAguns can be taken as casualties and the fighters new cost will be 8 IPC. Come to think about it, it always was unfair to let the AA gun only fire one time, but the aircrafts could fire every round.

    Your getting to a wider picture now, impressive.
    I’m not very qualified to appreciate all the details and balance of units.
    Glad that some of the ideas has just showed helped you refined your mixed model of 1914G40.

    On AA gun and Fighters:
    For balance purpose and historical accuracy (1 out 10 planes were shoot down according to IL), making up to three rolls every round is a lot. At least, give AA gun a single roll @1 vs 1 plane max after the first round (even if not preemptive).

    Also, if FgA1D2M4, 1 hit, always hit plane first, maybe you can make it a 6 IPCs unit.
    Maybe can also allow Fg to target AA gun instead, when no plane.

    Your combat system includes a lot of possible planes casualties, this way it will have a lesser impact.

    However, you will have another balance issue with 2 places carriers because Fighters will not be very effective vs TacBs. And carriers with 2 Fgs on it vs warships will not get a real chance.
    Imagine: the once proud CV+2 Fgs A6D10M2 is becoming a A2D6M2.
    This means that only TcB A3D4 will be put on Carriers.
    Which is inaccurate historically.

    That was one of the reason I mostly keep the +1 A/D Air Supremacy bonus.

    I’m thinking out loud here:
    If you don’t like such bonus,
    maybe you need to think differently about Carrier to keep balance,
    make them 3 places instead of 2 planes carrier.

    There will be room for mixed cargos on CV:1 Fg + 2 TcB / 2 Fgs + 1 TcB.
    3 Fg A1D2C"6"= A3D6C18
    Maybe it is TcB which need also a lower down to A2D3C8 IPCs.

    Combining three planes will be more in the same value with OOB originals 2 TcBs (A6-8D6 Cost22):
    3 TcBs A2D3C8 = A6D9C24  3 Fgs A1D2C6 = A3D6C18
    2TcB+1Fg        = A5D8C22  2 Fgs+1TcB = A4D6C20

    Don’t know if this unexplored new idea of 3 planes carrier can save the day for Carrier operations…
    I hadn’t thought about it while I was exploring Air-to-Air combat and impact on carrier operations with Uncrustable.
    But at least, you will know about.
    But the 3 TcB will still prevails.

  • '17 '16

    Still thinking about AA guns.

    Maybe the price should get lower because planes are getting a lower price.

    Once the price on TcB and Fg will be clearly determined then you will have to fix a price for AA gun according to their capacity, rate of fire and probability of casualties costs.

  • '17 '16

    For simplicity all warships hit on a 2 or less.

    Since amphibious assault is already not a piece of cake for invaders, at least shore bombardment should be at the same value as artillery: A3.
    Battleship is a 2 hit unit, should get 2 hits, each should get a second roll A3 on the next turn.

  • '17 '16

    I think of this number for a first round of air-to-air combat only,
    then a continuous aerial combat over battlefield when there is surviving planes,
    until one side get Air Supremacy: giving First strike.

    1 AAA unit block 1 plane from getting Air Supremacy.
    With lower prices of planes AAA could target plane every round (first round up to 3, other 1@1).

    Here is the combat value for air-to-air:
    Fighter  A2D2
    TcBomb A1D1
    StBomb A1D0

    Here is the combat value for regular combat:
    Fighter   A2D2M4C7 when paired with TcB give +1A, always hit aircraft first (owner’s choice), then can choose AAA.
    TcBomb  A2-3D3M4C8 when paired with Fg get +1A First Strike (no retaliation from casualty) when getting Air Supremacy
    StBomb A1x4D1M6C12 First Strike (no retaliation from casualty) when getting Air Supremacy
    (That is to keep balance with the better offensive planes, based on A/D per IPCs.)

    Scramble from AirBase will be allowed for up to 4 planes (Fg/TcB).
    (This is because of the lower defense value of aircrafts.)

    When scrambled from AirBase Fg and TcB get +1D on air-to-air battle.

    Finally, for balancing naval battle, Aircraft carrier now can received up to three planes.
    3 Fgs= A6D6C21
    2 Fgs 1 TcB = A7D7C22
    1 Fg  2 TcBs= A7D8C23
    3 TcBs= A6D9C24

    Vs OOB
    2 Fgs = A6D8C20
    1 Fg 1 TcB= A7D7C21
    2 TcBs = A6(8)D6C22


    Maybe Strat Bomber value could be modified also:
    StBomb A1x3D1M6C10 First Strike (no retaliation from casualty) when getting Air Supremacy
    (The reduced attack capacity received a lower price to balance with the cheaper but better offensive planes, based on A/D per IPCs.)

    Now, with these cost and values you can increase the number of planes casualties and still be able to compensate for the lost ones.

    And also, the main problem about reduced cost and values of planes which was Naval battle and Carrier operation is solved.
    In addition, each full carrier will be better than his OOB counter-part.
    But not that much, and it will better recreate the aero-naval combat with a mixed group of one third of Fg vs TcB.

  • '17 '16

    I would just add that the 3 planes Carrier is the real breakthrough here.

    When Uncrustable and me tried to develop a more aircraft-based WWII game we fall on this trap about Carrier operation and combat value of a full carrier vs other warships.
    We tried to solved it by reducing the carrier cost, but neither of us were satisfied.

    Uncrustable turn toward a simple fix: OOB TcB cost reduced to 10 IPCs.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32255.msg1212318#msg1212318
    I made “1” roll hit plane for Fg A3D3C9 and TcB get A3-4D4C11.
    But neither of us reach the real objective:
    creating a G40 with a lot of planes vs planes combat, and planes casualties.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32328.msg1215373#msg1215373
    Hence, having lower combat value and lower cost for each aircraft.

    Now you get it.  :-D
    (And there is a lot of thinking :? in this, be sure of it.)

    You will find more about the all this and Air Supremacy First Strike here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32255.msg1210836#msg1210836

    Here is some points to consider if you wish to develop air-to-air combat for 1914G40 in a different direction.

    There is some issues in a plane vs plane battle:
    1- balance (tactical & economical), an expensive battle regarding IPCs value of units destroyed in early combat cycles instead of later combat cycles,
    2- the nature of Air combat phase (ex.: before the main battle or at the same time),
    3- his mechanism, (preemptive fire, AAA gun, etc.)
    4- combat values of escort vs interceptor Fgs,
    5- attack factor of Fg vs defensive factor of scrambled TcB,
    6- and any Air superiority and/or Air supremacy effects/bonus on all 3 types: Fg, TcB, StB.

    @KionAAA:

    Hello Friends

    My thoughts to some of the ideas discussed here:

    @Uncrustable:

    3. Enhanced air units.
    Fighters-cost 8 A2D2. On all hits an air unit must be chosen first(choose your own casualty applies)
    -Fighters defend at 3, if there is an operational friendly airbase present
    Tac bombers- cost 10 A3D3, no SBR
    -Tac bombers A4D4 if there are no enemy aircraft, and atleast 1 friendly fighter is present (Air supremacy bonus)

    Now we have 3 air units with a distinct role for each:

    Fighters: Cheap, strong on defense with an AB (See Battle of Britain), escort and intercept SBR
    Tac bombers: Best combat air unit, needs fighters, deadly vs ground units when the skies are clear (no SBR)
    Strat bombers: Long range, good on offense, SBR, needs airbase, poor defense

    I see your attempt to introduce rules regarding aircombat into the game, but I don’t think they are working.

    I don’t think those rules would function well. Let me explain why by first explaining the new situation at land, then at sea.

    At land:
    In small battles (South france in Round 1, reconquer Ukraine for the umpteenth time etc.), it’s all the same as before with cheaper and slightly weaker aircraft.
    In a typical big battle (London, Moscow etc.), the defender will probably have at least 2 fighters. Let’s assume you attack with 3 Fg’s, 4 TcB’s and 2 StB’s (AFTER AAA) against 2 Fg’s, both with large ground armies. Then your fighters need 2 rounds in average to kill the enemy Fg’s so from the third round on, your TcB’s get their bonus damage. But the first two rounds are the most important and from experience, battles are decided within the first 3 rounds (fourth round is often only killing the few last survivors). So the bonus damage comes late and only when the battle is already two thirds over. And this is ignoring any TcB’s the defender may have (that would cancel the bonus) or the damage his Fg’s may have done the first two rounds. And it’s already heavily favouring the attacker (4 Fg’s, 4TcB’s against 2 Fg’s with one AAA hit on Fg)
    So in those big fights, your TcB’s are fighting most of the time (if at any time) without the bonus.

    Also, fighters with def 3 only at airbases means that if you want to strengthen a defense with your fighters, you almost have to build an airbase. This would be the case for instance at egypt.

    At sea:
    Here it’s the same argument as above plus:
    no airbases means fighters defend always at 2. This, the high costs for ships in general (as normal casualties) and the high costs for carriers to start with means, that fighters are the worse choice than TcB’s in my opinion.
    But see for yourself (given CV at 15 IPC):
    A) CV+2Fg:  4A/6D/31C
    B) CV+2TcB: 6A/8D/35C
    Yea, in A) the damage has to be given to aircraft (cost 8-10),
    while ind B) the damage can be allocated freely to any ship or aircraft (cost 6-10 except last hits on CV/BB).
    On the other side, B) is doing 33-50% more damage at only 13% higher cost. And as all ships are almost as expensive as aircraft, the “hit only aircraft”-rule is of much smaller expense than on land.

    All in one, I dislike the rules and would advocate the older rules:

    Fighter: 2A/3D/8C (can scramble and escort)
    TcB: 3A/3D/10C combined arms (tanks and fighters)

    And as someone mentioned the problems with TcB’s beeing to strong on CVs compared to Fg’s, I propose the following addition:

    Variant I) TcB: 3A/2D/10C combined arms (fighters and tanks)(both attack and defense)

    So TcB’s alone defend quite bad but still as usual if paired.

    With these rules, a Fg+TcB-combo has 6A/6D/18C whereas now they are at 7A/7D/21C. This seems reasonable.
    With these rules:
    Fighters are good defenders and ok at attack, can scramble and escort.
    Tactical bombers are great at attacking if paired with Fg’s or tanks, only mediocre if alone.

    So TcB’s are good and worth to build (the main criticism of OOB-rules) while the rules obey “the importance of simplicity, meaningfulness and logic” as stressed in the main post.
    @Uncrustable:

    So far, see you around
    Kion

  • '17 '16

    I would add, again  :-), about 3 planes carrier that it will be easier to also get an air-to-air combat in a SZ. Something which cannot happen in 1914 (no carrier, no scramble).

    Each carrier bringing more planes, loosing 1 or 2 planes during the air combat phase will not have the same impact of loosing an OOB Fg defending @4, usually kept amongst last casualties.

    This air-to-air phase should be part of any combat when there is any plane involved.

    If you decide to abandon the air combat phase after reading KionAAA post for something else, here where goes our follow-up discussion:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32328.msg1213380#msg1213380

  • '17 '16

    Here is the combat value for regular combat:
    Fighter   A2D2M4C7 when paired with TcB give +1A, always hit aircraft first (owner’s choice), then can choose AAA.
    TcBomb  A2-3D3M4C8 when paired with Fg get +1A First Strike (no retaliation) when getting Air Supremacy

    I know you suggested 6 IPCs for Fg A1D2 or 8 IPCs for Fg A2D2.
    Fg unit needs to be 7 IPCs and A2D2 in order to put three of them on a 3 planes Carrier and be near the combat value and the cost of OOB G40 2 planes fleet Carrier.

    Same reasoning for TcB A2D3 at 8 IPCs.

    Don’t forget these two units are fighting against Inf A2D3C3 not OOB A1D2C3.

    Basic Infantry unit is much more powerful here.

    On the other side, Destroyers A2D2 at 8 IPCs can be just too high to compete as fodder and as enemy with Fg.
    Maybe it should be lowered to 7 IPCs also so both have the same combat value and will serve as fodder.
    It can also have an impact on 6 IPCs Subs IDK.

    But clearly Cruiser A3D3C12 would need a cost reduction for sure.

    Battleship will be more overpowered (than in OOB version ) by 5 hits full Carrier (2 hits) and 3 planes, I suggested to lower the price at the same rate as you do for Cruiser+1, if you have reduced DD by 1 IPC.
    (If, in addition cruiser get -1/-2 IPCs, then BB should be reduced by -2/-3 IPCs).
    Explanation: 1 DD+1Cruiser vs 1 BB= 50% vs 50% odds of survival.
    It is just to preserve the combat ratio vs cost.

  • '17 '16

    @Yavid:

    I really like the dog fighting rules for G40

    I hope I gave you what you wanted.  :-D

  • '17 '16

    @ossel:

    I also want to work on adding an air superiority combat phase anyway; I’ll be posting my initial stabs at these rule adaptations in the House Rules forum soon.

    Hi Ossel,
    Hope I gave you some water to the mills.  :-D

    If you find I derailed somehow from your intent on this thread, let me know, I will put elsewhere the long posts.

    See you soon on this forum,
    Baron.


  • @Baron:

    However, you will have another balance issue with 2 planes carriers because Fighters will not be very effective vs TacBs. And carriers with 2 Fgs on it vs warships will not get a real chance.

    Yes, I like that, its just how it was in the real war. Carriers had a small fighter screen for protection against air attack, not to sink enemy battleships. Actually I don’t think a fighter can sink any ships with its machine guns. Only torpedo bombers, dive bombers, medium bombers and heavy bombers can sink ships, fighters can not. Was it the UK carrier Glorius that had fighters only, and got sunk by German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in 1940 ? And how many waves off carrierbased divebombers against Tirpitz, before she was sunk by Avro Lancaster heavy bombes. And were it medium bombers that sunk Prince of Wales and Rodney, and how many fighters attacked the battleships at Pearl Harbor and Taranto ? None, only dive bombers, yes. You need a torpedo to sink a ship, not a small machine gun.

    It is correct that Carriers become the capital ship of this time, pushing battleships down to a second place. But it is not correct that fighters had more firepower than warships. A divebomber slowed Bismarck down, but it took battleships and destroyers to sink her. And submarines sunk far more ships than planes did. The main difference between a battleship and a divebomber, is that the divebomber come out of the horizon, and the enemy ships are out of sight, making it an air to sea battle. The divebombers torpedoes against the warships AA gun fire. Most of the hex and counter games have different values for a warships ability to fight other ships or aircrafts. But the A&A warship have only one combat value, that it use for all purposes. The A&A battleship hit on a 4 or less to other battleships, subs, aircrafts and shore bombarement. This is the problem.

    To the game, to let fighters sink warships is in the same alley as sub attack other subs, which only happen one time during WWII, when a UK sub sank a German sub. Attack submarines did not come until the 1970 s. Down the same alley is the classic tranny that could defend on a roll of 1. Buy 10 trannies, and they would sink any battleship. And a transport sinking a battleship never happened in any war. Luckily that is fixed now, since the G40 trannies must be taken as casualties after the warships.


  • @Baron:

    Don’t forget these two units are fighting against Inf A2D3C3 not OOB A1D2C3.

    Basic Infantry unit is much more powerful here.

    The true problem is that the infantry use the same combat value for all purposes. It defend at 3 or less against both other infantry, artillery barrage from far away, tanks and heavy bombers high up in the sky. This is to keep it simple. A&A is a game, not an in depth war simulation.

    The best fix the way I see it, is to divide general combat in two phases.
    Flak, Dogfight and ground strafe phase.
    Fighters A1 and D2, can target other aircrafts, or strafe ground units.
    Tacs strafe ground units A3 and D4
    St Bombers carpet bomb infantry stack A1 + A1 + A1, limited to one die for each unit
    AA guns fire at aircrafts D1 + D1 + D1, limited to one die for each plane

    All hits are preemptive, so ground units cant kill aircrafts in the ground unit phase
    Surviving ground units go as usual. Tanks get a boost with a matching Tac

    The same with Naval Combat
    Fighters A1 and D2, can target other aircrafts or strafe ships
    Tacs, in this case dive bombers, strike ships A3 and D4
    St Bombers should roll one die with 4 or less a hit, since you don’t carpet bomb ships

    All ships do Anti Air fire. Each ship roll one die, every 1 a hit.

    Remove casualties
    When one part is out of planes, then start surface combat with the usual combat values


  • Then have 3 plane carriers that can have a combine of fighters, tac, dive, and torp.
    Fighters cant attack ships. Fighters just support air space.
    Tac,dive and torp can attack ships.
    Battleships attack at 4 but were they better at attacking ships or planes and did they sink alot of subs :|


  • @SS:

    Then have 3 plane carriers that can have a combine of fighters, tac, dive, and torp.
    Fighters cant attack ships. Fighters just support air space.
    Tac,dive and torp can attack ships.
    Battleships attack at 4 but were they better at attacking ships or planes and did they sink alot of subs :|

    Since we are talking house rules, you are free to load your carriers with as many planes you want. But myself, I prefer the classic 2 plane carrier for several reasons. First, its standard so everybody are used to it. But more important, since the A&A carrier unit represent 6 real life carriers, and a WWII carrier had from 50 to 70 aircrafts, then 6 carriers can have a max of 500 aircrafts. The 6 carriers at Pearl had 350 aircrafts. Lets say an A&A fighter represent 250 real life fighters, then it feels correct to place two fighters on a carrier. 3 is one too much. Some people would even say one fighter is enough, since it looks like the A&A plane unit is more than 500 hundred real planes, judging from the set up.

    Of course fighters too can attack ships, but not on A3 and D4. Fighters can do A1 and D2 against ships, I am fine with that, no problem

    No, real life battleships were far too big and slow to do effective sub hunting, and to my knowledge no sub was sunk by a battleship, and only one sub by another sub. And for game purposes, warships and planes need a destroyer to hunt subs. Lets just pretend the battleship hit was assigned something useful

  • '17 '16

    @Razor:

    @Baron:

    However, you will have another balance issue with 2 planes carriers because Fighters will not be very effective vs TacBs. And carriers with 2 Fgs on it vs warships will not get a real chance.

    Yes, I like that, its just how it was in the real war. Carriers had a small fighter screen for protection against air attack, not to sink enemy battleships. Actually I don’t think a fighter can sink any ships with its machine guns. Only torpedo bombers, dive bombers, medium bombers and heavy bombers can sink ships, fighters can not. Was it the UK carrier Glorius that had fighters only, and got sunk by German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in 1940 ? And how many waves off carrierbased divebombers against Tirpitz, before she was sunk by Avro Lancaster heavy bombes. And were it medium bombers that sunk Prince of Wales and Rodney, and how many fighters attacked the battleships at Pearl Harbor and Taranto ? None, only dive bombers, yes. You need a torpedo to sink a ship, not a small machine gun.

    It is correct that Carriers become the capital ship of this time, pushing battleships down to a second place. But it is not correct that fighters had more firepower than warships. A divebomber slowed Bismarck down, but it took battleships and destroyers to sink her. And submarines sunk far more ships than planes did. The main difference between a battleship and a divebomber, is that the divebomber come out of the horizon, and the enemy ships are out of sight, making it an air to sea battle. The divebombers torpedoes against the warships AA gun fire. Most of the hex and counter games have different values for a warships ability to fight other ships or aircrafts. But the A&A warship have only one combat value, that it use for all purposes. The A&A battleship hit on a 4 or less to other battleships, subs, aircrafts and shore bombarement. This is the problem.

    Sorry, I still believe that there will be very few fighters A1D2 put on a 2 places Carrier.
    Too much limited places.
    And attacking TcB have the same attack value A1 vs attacking fighters: A1 in the dogfight phase.
    So Fg not a great unit to put on board.

    Maybe 1 Fg out of 4 planes or 2 out of 6, IDK.
    It will need more carriers to recreate an optimized mixed of Fg and TcB.

    This means that only TcB A3D4 will be put on Carriers.
    Which is inaccurate historically.

    OOB have some incentive to buy 1 TcB+ 1 Fg. (+1A when paired)
    Not your 1914G40.

    I’m not sure to follow you on every aspect of 1914 system, since Strafe is a separate phase, no ground units (Inf, Art, Arm) are able to roll against planes, only AAA during the first phase: Flak phase. (Does planes can destroy AAA somehow? Or just wait the strafe phase?) Right?

    Does attacking TacB @1? and Fg @1 dogfight with defending Fg@D2 and TcB@1?

    What happen to the surviving planes after the air-to-air combat phase, (1 or 2 rounds?), how many?, since it is not to the death?

    Does attacking TacB @3 et Fg @1 do strafing while defending Fg@D2 are just strafing the invader’s ground unit also?

    Does attacking TacB@3 do strafing while attacking Fg@A1 are still fighting against the defending Fighters @D2?

    How many rounds for strafing attack? Just one?

  • '17 '16

    @Razor:

    To the game, to let fighters sink warships is in the same alley as sub attack other subs, which only happen one time during WWII, when a UK sub sank a German sub. Attack submarines did not come until the 1970 s.

    This is inaccurate historically speaking, this sub vs sub was unique because both subs were underwater.
    But there is a lot of subs vs subs destruction:
    Read the three posts and follow the link in them:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31177.msg1149576#msg1149576

  • Customizer

    @Baron:

    @ossel:

    I also want to work on adding an air superiority combat phase anyway; I’ll be posting my initial stabs at these rule adaptations in the House Rules forum soon.

    Hi Ossel,
    Hope I gave you some water to the mills.  :-D

    If you find I derailed somehow from your intent on this thread, let me know, I will put elsewhere the long posts.

    See you soon on this forum,
    Baron.

    Baron,
      Thanks for the message. I do feel as if the thread has derailed a bit; I was going for more of a KISS approach in applying a few of the neat mechanics from 1914 to 1940, but I don’t begrudge the discussion at all. I’m always interested in hearing new ideas.  :-D

  • '17 '16

    @ossel:

    @Baron:

    @ossel:

    I also want to work on adding an air superiority combat phase anyway; I’ll be posting my initial stabs at these rule adaptations in the House Rules forum soon.

    Hi Ossel,
    Hope I gave you some water to the mills.  :-D

    If you find I derailed somehow from your intent on this thread, let me know, I will put elsewhere the long posts.

    See you soon on this forum,
    Baron.

    Baron,
      Thanks for the message. I do feel as if the thread has derailed a bit; I was going for more of a KISS approach in applying a few of the neat mechanics from 1914 to 1940, but I don’t begrudge the discussion at all. I’m always interested in hearing new ideas.  :-D

    What does this means “KISS”?

    I have 1914 but never have a chance to play on it.
    Maybe I miss something on the basics dynamics of Air combat and Strafing run.
    Of course, it is the dog fighting thing which raise all of my enthousiasm, and put me on my “breakthrough on 3 planes carrier” which resolve many of the issues raise by lower cost and combat value for planes when trying to develop an air-to-air combat system.

    Probably my mind is still too much stuck in reg A&A system than 1914 system.

    For example, I was trying to reduce the fighting value of plane vs OOB in order to lower IPCs cost.
    But is it necessary to do this to keep balance?

    Maybe such a low

    6 IPCs for a Fg  A2D3 in dogfight and A1D1 when strafing ground or warships and
    8 IPCs for a TcB A1D1 in dogfight and A3-4D4 when strafing ground and warships (getting +1A with Air Supremacy)

    is still a correct cost.
    Because WWII planes were much better warmachines than WWI.
    And the system provides a plane vs plane destruction before doing strafing attack.

    Infantry unit get a a bit over 1.5 boost for same 3 IPCs they are A2D3.
    Artillery unit get 1.5 boost a  for same 4 IPCs vs ground, A3D3 and still give a +1A support Inf.

    2 Inf units for 6 IPCs = A4-6D6
    vs
    I Fg A2D3, are twice effective.

    2 Art units for 8 IPCs = A6D6M1 +2A boost for Inf
    vs
    1 TcB A3-4D4M4 getting +1A from Air Sup and +1A to tank have not a so great advantage.


    Just see Fg as an air-Infantry doubling the 3 IPCs cost.
    And TcB as an air-Artillery doubling the 4 IPCs cost.
    It can help viewing differently these combat values for costlier units than ground ones.


  • KISS= Keep it simple stupid.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    KISS= Keep it simple stupid.

    Thanks. :-)

  • '17 '16

    @Razor:

    @SS:

    Then have 3 plane carriers that can have a combine of fighters, tac, dive, and torp.
    Fighters cant attack ships. Fighters just support air space.
    Tac,dive and torp can attack ships.
    Battleships attack at 4 but were they better at attacking ships or planes and did they sink alot of subs :|

    Since we are talking house rules, you are free to load your carriers with as many planes you want. But myself, I prefer the classic 2 plane carrier for several reasons. First, its standard so everybody are used to it. But more important, since the A&A carrier unit represent 6 real life carriers, and a WWII carrier had from 50 to 70 aircrafts, then 6 carriers can have a max of 500 aircrafts. The 6 carriers at Pearl had 350 aircrafts. Lets say an A&A fighter represent 250 real life fighters, then it feels correct to place two fighters on a carrier. 3 is one too much. Some people would even say one fighter is enough, since it looks like the A&A plane unit is more than 500 hundred real planes, judging from the set up.

    Of course fighters too can attack ships, but not on A3 and D4. Fighters can do A1 and D2 against ships, I am fine with that, no problem

    I’m not sure that historical rationalization should come first in line before game fun and balance of units. However, it is still a matter of preference to pick one HR on an other when playing on a board game: it is a game.

    Once this said, I don’t know where you get your infos about 50 to 70 planes on carriers.
    Everywhere I checked it, I get:
    Yorktown-class like Enterprise can have up to 90 crafts on board.
    Essex-class CV can have up to 100 crafts on board.
    (Maybe it was the real historical number, you are talking, while I’m talking an optimal number should the real carriers have their full load.)

    Usually, according to what I could find, the ratio Fighter vs TcB (Torpedo/Dive Bombers) is 2/3 vs 1/3. (Based on light carrier planes distribution.)
    Taking 6 Essex-class gives 600 hundreds planes. (Keeping round numbers.)
    Approximately 400 fighters will be F4F Wildcat/or F6F Hellcats
    and 200 TcBs will be TBF Avengers (Torpedo Bomber)/ SB2C Helldiver (Dive bomber).

    So each sculpt could represent 200 planes instead of OOB 300 planes.

    If you add to this the fact that Fg and TcB units have reduced value compared to OOB unit, it can easily be made for the changing ratio of the unit:
    300 real life TcB give 1 OOB TcB A3D4  and
    200 real life TcB give 1 1914G40 TcB (for 3 place carriers) A2D3.

    Here you see how it is possible to rationalize it differently.

    Of course fighters too can attack ships, but not on A3 and D4. Fighters can do A1 and D2 against ships, I am fine with that, no problem

    For Fighter I just put A2D2 nothing more.
    And targeting planes first (instead of warships), if their is still enemy planes during the strafe phase.

    Here is the combat value for regular combat:
    Fighter   A2D2M4C7 when paired with TcB give +1A, always hit aircraft first (owner’s choice), then can choose AAA.
    TcBomb  A2-3D3M4C8 when paired with Fg get +1A First Strike (no retaliation from casualty) when getting Air Supremacy


    Edit:
    I finally find this about planes type distribution:

    Yorktown class “as-built” design characteristics:
    Aircraft (Typical operational complement, November 1942): 88 planes,
    including 36 F4F fighters, 36 SBD scout-bombers and 16 TBD torpedo planes

    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/cv/cv5-7cl.htm

    Essex class “as-built” design characteristics:
    Aircraft (average operational complement, October 1944): 90 planes,
    including 38 F6F day fighters, 4 F6F night fighters, 27 SB2C scout-bombers, 18 TBM torpedo planes, 3 F6F photographic planes.

    http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/cv/cv9cl.htm

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