13L G40 NT Arathorn (Axis) vs. Infrastructure (Allies +13)

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

@Gamerman01:

HOLD EVERYTHING

Infrastructure’s invasion of Berlin with ground units was not even legal in the first place.
R4 needs to be redone

Gamerman,

Are you monitoring every game now for glitches?  I had a game i lost back in the spring that was due to rule glitch can we go back now and redo that game?  How far past a glitch not being recognized can a game go back?  Your setting a strange precendent breaking into a game and setting a rule fix after dice have been rolled.  Do you have the time to monitor and correct and have games go back?  You are ambitious!

Infrasructure.

He did not monitor it. After a discussion where both Gamer, JDOW and myself were involved, both JDOW and I made comments that made Gamer check it out. I said something like “I wish I had not forgotten to DOW with Italy”. That’s when Gamer checked and realised that the move was illegal. I then went to the rules, and found out that Gamer was of course, as usual, correct about the move.

[Major Major]

I always want a clean game and would never make an illegal move intentionally.  That is cheating.

At G3 of this game I stopped playing this game as I would normally play any game.  I realized I was playing an opponent that wanted a cheap win over a good game.  I adjusted my game strategy for this game only to match that.  I would NEVER play any game in the style I am playing this one under any other circumstance.  If Arathorn states that he asked gamerman to adjudicate and gamerman found a problem, than I will redo R4.

Illegal moves have happened in a signifigant percentage of this season’s games without being known and the games have counted.  I feel gamermans decisions in this serves an interesting precedent.  I have to feel that arathorn in my position would want it to stick since a move had been made.  Again I am playing this game responding to my opponent’s game play.

Gamerman,
You have been asked two possibly 3 times to adjudicate in this game and I thank you for your time and patience.  I am playing a game that is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth mostly because playing for cheap win is hard for me. 
I take it you are stating that if you catch any game with a rule misque from here on out that that game will be returned to the turn before the rule error?  Is that accurate or is there a turn or time limit to the missed error going through?

[gamerman01]

First of all, obviously the only time a game would continue after an illegal move would be if the player suffering from the illegal move did not realize that the move was illegal.  Because of this it’s their own problem if they lose the game because they didn’t know the rules.

No one has accused you of making an illegal move intentionally!  I certainly give you the benefit of the doubt that you were unaware that you were breaking any rules.  Arathorn obviously did not realize the move was illegal, either.  However, I happened to be watching this game closely because I had posted in it and because I have been needed to rule on at least 3 issues already.  I happened to notice that you blitzed Poland illegally, so am requiring you to re-do R4.

This does not set precedent.  Any time anyone sees an illegal move as a game is being played, they should raise that to the attention of the players involved, and it should be immediately resolved.  I think this is obvious.  This huge error was caught pretty much immediately as no game play has occurred subsequent to the R4.  The R4 combat move was illegal, and the dice you rolled were illegal.  Arathorn did not realize this at first, as he was rolling the LL re-roll.  But that doesn’t matter.  A player (happened to be me) saw the illegal move and brought it to your attention.  R4 needs to be completely redone because the combat move was illegal and was pretty much caught immediately (J turn has not started).

It is irrelevant to interrogate me about whether I would make some other player go back who knows how many rounds to fix an illegal move.  You made an illegal move, it was caught immediately, so you need to make a legal move to replace it.

[MrRoboto]

@Infrastructure:

Illegal moves have happened in a signifigant percentage of this season’s games without being known and the games have counted.

It’s our job to know the rule, we players. If an error stays undetected because the other player does not know about it or just did not check, it’s his fault only. I’ve forgotten to adjust China’s IPC after suffering convoy in my early games but I can’t blame anyone but me.

@Infrastructure:

I have to feel that arathorn in my position would want it to stick since a move had been made.

The error happened in R4 and J4 hasn’t been done afterwards. How much faster do you want an error to be noticed?

I have to say Infrastructure, after seeing your behavior in this game, I decided for me, personally, to not play another match against/with you. I even regret agreeing to your proposal with our second game, although I will stick to it of course.

[Major Major]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 4

Politics - Russians
            Russians takes Political Action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Germans and Russians from Neutrality to War
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and British from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and French from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Allies from Neutrality to Friendly_Neutral
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Axis from Neutrality to Unfriendly_Neutral

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 3 artilleries and 9 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Karelia to Finland
                  Russians take Finland from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Poland
                  Russians take Poland from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Romania
                  Russians take Romania from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol
                  Chinese take Jehol from Japanese

Combat - Russians

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Karelia
            2 aaGuns, 2 armour, 3 artilleries, 30 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Eastern Poland to Romania
            2 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Romania
            1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Eastern Poland
            1 aaGun moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
            3 infantry moved from Bryansk to Western Ukraine
            1 artillery moved from Ukraine to Western Ukraine
            1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
            1 mech_infantry moved from Volgograd to Northwest Persia
                  Russians take Northwest Persia from Neutral_Allies
            3 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
            2 infantry moved from Kansu to Tsinghai
            1 fighter moved from Yenisey to Russia
            1 infantry moved from Korea to Manchuria
            2 aaGuns and 16 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol

Place Units - Russians
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Novgorod
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
            Russians undo move 2.
            2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine
            6 infantry placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 1,3,5
            Russians collect 44 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 44 PUs total
            Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 49 PUs
            Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 9 PUs; end with 58 PUs

[Major Major]

I hold you to nothing.  DOn’t play if you don’t want to robotto.  I’ve enjoyed our game and am sorry you feel this way.

[arathorn]

The move is illegal again. You have to declare war on Italy and fight combat to conquer Poland and Romania.

[Major Major]

that is incorrect.  I just cant blitz.

[arathorn]

You’re mistaken. You can’t co-occupy a territory with land units of the opposite sides. A lot of people get that confused since it’s legal in seazones. Check with Gamerman.

Just because TripleA allows it, doesn’t mean it’s correct.

[arathorn]

“A power may never attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.”

From this document:
Page 3 section 2

http://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Pacific-1940-Errata-FAQ.pdf

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

Page 15, Europe 2nd edition manual, blue box, first sentence under Combat:

A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.

I guess you missed this post.

[Major Major]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 4

Politics - Russians
            Russians takes Political Action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Germans and Russians from Neutrality to War
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and British from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and French from Neutrality to Allied
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Allies from Neutrality to Friendly_Neutral
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Germans: Changing Relationship for Russians and Neutral_Axis from Neutrality to Unfriendly_Neutral
            Russians takes Political Action: Political Action Russians To War With Italians
                Russians succeeds on action: Political Action Russians To War With Italians: Changing Relationship for Italians and Russians from Neutrality to War

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 7 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol
                  Chinese take Jehol from Japanese
            3 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Romania
            1 artillery moved from Eastern Poland to Romania
            3 infantry moved from Baltic States to Poland
            1 infantry moved from Karelia to Finland
                  Russians take Finland from Germans
            3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Novgorod to Poland

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Poland
                Russians attack with 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Italians defend with 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
                    AA fire in Poland :  0/3 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Poland, round 2 :  2/7 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 aaGun and 2 infantry in Poland, round 2 :  0/2 hits
                    1 aaGun owned by the Italians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Poland
                    Russians roll dice for 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Poland, round 3 :  1/7 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Poland, round 3 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Poland
                Russians win, taking Poland from Germans with 3 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 11
                Casualties for Italians: 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
            Battle in Romania
                Russians attack with 1 artillery and 3 infantry
                Italians defend with 1 aaGun, 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 3 infantry in Romania, round 2 :  2/4 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 aaGun, 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Romania, round 2 :  1/2 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians , 1 aaGun owned by the Italians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Romania
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Romania, round 3 :  0/3 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 artillery in Romania, round 3 :  0/1 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Romania, round 4 :  1/3 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 artillery in Romania, round 4 :  0/1 hits
                    1 artillery owned by the Italians lost in Romania
                Russians win, taking Romania from Germans with 1 artillery and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 9
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 aaGun, 1 artillery and 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Russians
            2 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
            1 aaGun moved from Baltic States to Eastern Poland
            1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Novgorod to Eastern Poland
            3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Poland to Novgorod
            3 infantry moved from Bryansk to Belarus
            3 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
            1 mech_infantry moved from Volgograd to Northwest Persia
                  Russians take Northwest Persia from Neutral_Allies
            2 infantry moved from Kansu to Tsinghai
            1 fighter moved from Yenisey to Russia
            1 infantry moved from Korea to Manchuria
            2 aaGuns and 16 infantry moved from Manchuria to Jehol

Place Units - Russians
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Ukraine
            1 armour, 1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Novgorod
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Novgorod: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Karelia: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            5 infantry placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 5,6,3
            Russians collect 44 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 44 PUs total
            Trigger Russians 1 Lend Lease: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 49 PUs
            Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 9 PUs; end with 58 PUs

[arathorn]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 4

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 1 aaGun, 2 artilleries, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 factory_minor, 3 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens;

Combat Move - Japanese
            Trigger Japanese Unrestricted Movement: Setting movementRestrictionTerritories cleared  for rulesAttatchment attached to Japanese
            1 unit repaired.
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Iwo Jima to 17 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 17 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 19 Sea Zone to Manchuria
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 6 Sea Zone to Korea
            2 fighters moved from Japan to Manchuria
            3 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Shensi
            1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Kansu
                  Japanese take Kansu from Chinese
            2 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kweichow
            1 bomber moved from Kwangsi to Philippines
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 36 Sea Zone to Philippines
            1 destroyer moved from 43 Sea Zone to 55 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 36 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 79 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 41 Sea Zone
            3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 39 Sea Zone to 41 Sea Zone
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kwangtung to French Indo China
                  Japanese take French Indo China from French
            1 artillery moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from Kwangsi to 36 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 36 Sea Zone to 34 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Paulau Island to 34 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 34 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 35 Sea Zone to Philippines
            2 infantry moved from Kwangtung to 20 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to Siam
            1 artillery moved from 37 Sea Zone to Shan State
            1 armour moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 armour moved from 37 Sea Zone to Malaya
            1 fighter moved from Suiyuyan to Shensi
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Suiyuyan to Kweichow
            1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Kwangsi to Siam
            1 fighter moved from Kwangsi to Siam

[arathorn]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 4

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 1 aaGun, 2 artilleries, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 factory_minor, 3 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens;

Combat Move - Japanese
            Trigger Japanese Unrestricted Movement: Setting movementRestrictionTerritories cleared  for rulesAttatchment attached to Japanese
            1 unit repaired.
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Iwo Jima to 17 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 17 Sea Zone to 19 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 19 Sea Zone to Manchuria
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 6 Sea Zone to Korea
            2 fighters moved from Japan to Manchuria
            3 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Shensi
            1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Kansu
                  Japanese take Kansu from Chinese
            2 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kweichow
            1 bomber moved from Kwangsi to Philippines
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 36 Sea Zone to Philippines
            1 destroyer moved from 43 Sea Zone to 55 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 36 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 79 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 41 Sea Zone
            3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 39 Sea Zone to 41 Sea Zone
            1 mech_infantry moved from Kwangtung to French Indo China
                  Japanese take French Indo China from French
            1 artillery moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from Kwangsi to 36 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 36 Sea Zone to 34 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Paulau Island to 34 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 34 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 35 Sea Zone to Philippines
            2 infantry moved from Kwangtung to 20 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to Siam
            1 artillery moved from 37 Sea Zone to Shan State
            1 armour moved from India to 39 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 transport moved from 39 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 armour moved from 37 Sea Zone to Malaya
            1 fighter moved from Suiyuyan to Shensi
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Suiyuyan to Kweichow
            1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Kwangsi to Siam
            1 fighter moved from Kwangsi to Siam

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in 41 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 1 destroyer, 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber
                French defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese win with 3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 destroyer
                Casualties for French: 1 destroyer
            Battle in Siam
                Japanese attack with 2 fighters, 2 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers
                ANZAC defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Siam from ANZAC with 2 fighters, 1 infantry and 2 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry
            Battle in Malaya
            Battle in Shan State
            Battle in Korea
            Battle in Philippines
                Japanese attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Americans defend with 1 airfield, 1 harbour and 2 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Malaya from UK_Pacific, taking Shan State from UK_Pacific, taking Korea from Russians, taking Philippines from Americans with 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Americans: 2 infantry
            Battle in Manchuria
                Japanese attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Manchuria from Chinese with 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Shensi
                Japanese attack with 1 fighter and 3 infantry
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Shensi from Chinese with 1 fighter and 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry
            Battle in Kweichow
                Japanese attack with 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Kweichow from Chinese with 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            3 destroyers moved from 6 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 battleship and 1 carrier moved from 36 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Philippines to 35 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Philippines to Kwangtung
            1 battleship, 2 carriers, 2 cruisers and 1 destroyer moved from 39 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            4 transports moved from 39 Sea Zone to 36 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 36 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 41 Sea Zone to India
            2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Siam to 37 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers moved from Kwangsi to India
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Kweichow to Kiangsi
            1 fighter moved from Shensi to Kiangsi
            2 fighters moved from Manchuria to 6 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kiangsi
            1 aaGun, 3 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Kwangsi to French Indo China

Place Units - Japanese
            1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 2 transports placed in 6 Sea Zone
            1 factory_minor placed in Kwangtung
            2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Japan
            1 aaGun and 2 infantry placed in India

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 47 PUs; end with 48 PUs total
            Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 53 PUs