SUBS Overpowered -and- SUB Clarificaitons

[Gargantua]

I am just wondering if anyone else has the feeling that subs are overpowered?

-The sneak attacks at 1:1 ratio,
-The inability to be hit by air,
-The ability to retreat when attacked
-The Auto-Kill Features against Cruisers/Battleships/transports/Carriers

Are just too much for the price…  and in germanies case at $5 a sub… with the allies spending 7 per destroyer, just to have their destroyers get popped by -sneak- attacks? :S

Something’s got to be fixed here.

I mean, consider these examples

1. 1 sub attacks 56 cruisers, 28 battleships 9 aircraft carriers, and 12 loaded transports.

• the sub wins without any shots fired.

(Don’t get me wrong, I understand this against carriers and transports… but battleships and cruisers? :S  sneak attack YES, but no defense NO.)

2. Germany spends $30 on 6 subs, UK spends $28 on 4 destroyers.
Germany attacks, with 2 free shots at 5, destroying a destroyer, then 4 shots  at 5 sinking 2 more destroyers.  UK can only retaliate with 3 shots at 4.

3. Per above example, UK sends 4 destroyers to attack the 6 subs.  2 get to leave the zone immediately.  and the other 4 roll at defense of 2.  Assuming 1 hit or maybe 2 are made by the subs on defense, Germany has the edge on it’s turn when it attacks the left over british fleet.,

4. 2 subs attack a destroyer.  Because of the 1:1 ratio, the destroyer is killed in a sneak attack with no defense.  Apparently RADAR only works in one direction…

Too much for too little.

Anyways My thoughts aside… there are other clarifications required.

Question #1.

• Can subs retreat on defense?

Question #2

• 1 destroyer and 2 fighters attack 2 subs.  1 fighter hits, 1 destroyer hits.  Can only 1 sub be killed?

[americancyco]

I thought planes could attack subs when a destroyer was there (then again I could be getting this confused with normal AA rules)

[Gargantua]

But only on a 1-1 basis I believe.

[radar231]

Hi,

Answer to ex # 1. Make sure you always have destroyers in your fleet.

Question # 1. undetected  sub have the ability to submerge and leave the battle, not the battle zone. top para of pg 36/rules.

Question #2. Only one sub was detected by the destroyer, so only one sub can be killed.

J. 8-)

PS not typing fast enough I guess…

[americancyco]

Ok re-read the rules  I see what my problem was.  I use the standard AA rules for destroyers and do not require the 1 to 1 ratio.
I have to agree subs are a little too good for their cost with the required 1 to 1 ratio.

[Gargantua]

The rule clearly stipulates that you cannot submerge in a sea zone with a destroyer.

So attacking - you can retreat.

But defending?  What can you do?  you can’t submerge even if you are undetected… and if you can’t retreat, then you must fight! Right?

[MrMalachiCrunch]

1. 1 sub attacks 56 cruisers, 28 battleships 9 aircraft carriers, and 12 loaded transports.

• the sub wins without any shots fired.

I’ve never played Global,  Garg how can that be?  1 to 1 rule means one attacking plane/ship per destroyer along with the destroyer?  No destroyer no defense at all?

[radar231]

@Gargantua:

The rule clearly stipulates that you cannot submerge in a sea zone with a destroyer.

So attacking - you can retreat.

But defending?� What can you do?� you can’t submerge even if you are undetected… and if you can’t retreat, then you must fight! Right?

The rules mentionned : ’ Undetected subs also have the ability to submerge and leave the battle… etc. They can do this instead of their first strike '. To me that means both attacking and defending subs.

j 8-)

[radar231]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

1. 1 sub attacks 56 cruisers, 28 battleships 9 aircraft carriers, and 12 loaded transports.

• the sub wins without any shots fired.

I’ve never played Global,  Garg how can that be?  1 to 1 rule means one attacking plane/ship per destroyer along with the destroyer?  No destroyer no defense at all?

Then put a limit of  two hits per sub max., ONLY ONE BATTLE. That will teach you to have destroyers with your fleet .

J. 8-)

[americancyco]

I thought once a sub made an attack for that round it was open to being attacked by all enemy ships (even if they defenders do not have a destroyer)

Then next round the sub may submirge OR attack again leaving it open to all defending ships.

[Gargantua]

@americancyco:

I thought once a sub made an attack for that round it was open to being attacked by all enemy ships (even if they defenders do not have a destroyer)

Then next round the sub may submirge OR attack again leaving it open to all defending ships.

This makes the most sense to me.

But the rules aren’t very clear.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

1. 1 sub attacks 56 cruisers, 28 battleships 9 aircraft carriers, and 12 loaded transports.

• the sub wins without any shots fired.

I’ve never played Global,  Garg how can that be?  1 to 1 rule means one attacking plane/ship per destroyer along with the destroyer?  No destroyer no defense at all?

No destroyer means no defense at this point… this is why I’m arguing that maybe we’re reading the rules wrong… or the interpertation wrong, or the units are too powerful for $5.

[americancyco]

@Gargantua:

@americancyco:

I thought once a sub made an attack for that round it was open to being attacked by all enemy ships (even if they defenders do not have a destroyer)

Then next round the sub may submirge OR attack again leaving it open to all defending ships.

This makes the most sense to me.

But the rules aren’t very clear.

I have to agree rereading the rules it says if there are no destroyers then the attacking subs cannot be counter attacked.  That is far too good.

[Moose11]

I beg to differ.  I believe the subs are not overpowered.  And this from someone who lost more defenceless axis ships to allied subs than anyone else.

While defending against any fleet with destroyers, the subs are virtually defenceless with a two-defence.

However, it is unreasonable for a couple of subs to sink an entire armada.  I agree with Mr. MalachiCrunch.  If no destroyers are present, the submarines should be limited to sinking two ships each before the submarines… run out of ammo.  I then propose that the attacking submarines have the choice to submerge, or retreat out of the sea zone.

[Tigerman77]

E. SUBMARINE: Submarines may only fire on sea units. Submarines do not make a sea zone hostile to enemy units. Submarines are capable of making a first strike both when attacking and defending by firing before any other sea units. Hits are taken immediately and destroyed enemy ships may not return fire (unless it is also a submarine making a first strike). Enemy destroyers cancel this ability for the duration of the battle on a 1-for-1 basis.

Example: 5 submarines attack 3 destroyers and 1 cruiser. 3 of the submarines are detected by the 3 destroyers automatically. The other 2 subs can either stay in the battle and get a first strike or may retreat to the nearest friendly sea zone. These 2 subs can retreat only because they cannot submerge in a sea zone that contains a destroyer. Even if the preemptive strike destroys 1 destroyer, the 3 submarines that were detected are still detected and cannot retreat or submerge.

Additional submarines may be detected after the first round of combat if the destroyer-to-sub ratio changes due to combat (more subs are sunk than destroyers).

Example: After the first round above, let’s say 2 subs are sunk but all the destroyers survive. For the second round of combat, if all subs stay in the battle, all 3 remaining subs would be detected and none would receive their first strike.

Undetected submarines may only be fired upon by enemy submarines. Undetected submarines also have the ability to submerge and leave the battle, provided there are no enemy destroyers left. They can do this instead of using their first strike. Submerged submarines may not return to the battle at a later time.

We will clarify this in the 6.0 rules.

If 2 subs attack 2 cruisers. The subs get a first strike, or sneak attack, shot and casualties removed without a defending shot. Since the subs fired they are detected and any remaining units may return fire.  Now on the second round of combat, and any round after, the subs still get a sneak attack or they can submerge and end the battle, because there are no destroyers in the battle.

[Gargantua]

@Tigerman77:

E. SUBMARINE: Submarines may only fire on sea units. Submarines do not make a sea zone hostile to enemy units. Submarines are capable of making a first strike both when attacking and defending by firing before any other sea units. Hits are taken immediately and destroyed enemy ships may not return fire (unless it is also a submarine making a first strike). Enemy destroyers cancel this ability for the duration of the battle on a 1-for-1 basis.

Example: 5 submarines attack 3 destroyers and 1 cruiser. 3 of the submarines are detected by the 3 destroyers automatically. The other 2 subs can either stay in the battle and get a first strike or may retreat to the nearest friendly sea zone. These 2 subs can retreat only because they cannot submerge in a sea zone that contains a destroyer. Even if the preemptive strike destroys 1 destroyer, the 3 submarines that were detected are still detected and cannot retreat or submerge.

Additional submarines may be detected after the first round of combat if the destroyer-to-sub ratio changes due to combat (more subs are sunk than destroyers).

Example: After the first round above, let’s say 2 subs are sunk but all the destroyers survive. For the second round of combat, if all subs stay in the battle, all 3 remaining subs would be detected and none would receive their first strike.

Undetected submarines may only be fired upon by enemy submarines. Undetected submarines also have the ability to submerge and leave the battle, provided there are no enemy destroyers left. They can do this instead of using their first strike. Submerged submarines may not return to the battle at a later time.

We will clarify this in the 6.0 rules.Â

If 2 subs attack 2 cruisers. The subs get a first strike, or sneak attack, shot and casualties removed without a defending shot. Since the subs fired they are detected and any remaining units may return fire. Now on the second round of combat, and any round after, the subs still get a sneak attack or they can submerge and end the battle, because there are no destroyers in the battle.

Wow the bolded statement changes everything! Thank you!

[Star of Africa]

Since the subs fired they are detected and any remaining units may return fire…

Does this also mean battleships and air units ???

Transports and aircraft carriers cannot fire back, because of the restriction to fire only at air units!?

[Gargantua]

transports, carriers, and aircraft are OUT without destroyers.

[Tigerman77]

Aircraft can with destroyers but transports and carriers defend against aircraft only!

[Tigerman77]

@Tigerman77:

Aircraft can with destroyers but transports and carriers defend against aircraft only!

I recant this. The rules state that only Destroyers, cruisers, and aircraft can destroy subs.  So don’t leave those capital ships unguarded!!

This rule is to make the DD and the CA more valuable than in recent games.

[Gargantua]

Right so CRUISERS can still hit subs that are undetected?