How do subs work?

[Lucifer]

Even if subs are somewhat improved from AAR, they are still not good enough. The problem with AA50 rules is that the attacker needs only one DD to kill enemy subs.
Although Germany shouldnt be able to build a mighty navy like UK+US without being punished by Russians, like it is now, not only the starting Kriegsmarine in the Baltic will be sunk asap, the subs will not survive either, because with one single DD in the attacking force UK will easily kill all German subs at the start of the game. Germany cannot build any new subs either cause they will not survive to the next round.

[marechallannes]

Enemy subs and transports can’t prevent shore bombardement.

I need no naval battle to start amphibious landings if there are only enemy subs or transports.

Is this correct?

[Krieghund]

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

[Sondrax]

@Krieghund:

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

hm actually you cannot chose i think? according to LHTR, all sea units engage together in a sea battle. so you can build a sub in order to avoid a gazzillion offshore bombardments.

edit: on page 12 it says: “Offshore bombardment can only be done from a sea zone that was friendly at the beginning of the turn”

or did i miss an update on that?

[Krieghund]

@Sondrax:

@Krieghund:

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

hm actually you cannot chose i think? according to LHTR, all sea units engage together in a sea battle. so you can build a sub in order to avoid a gazzillion offshore bombardments.

edit: on page 12 it says: “Offshore bombardment can only be done from a sea zone that was friendly at the beginning of the turn”

or did i miss an update on that?

You are correct - for LHTR.  However, this is the forum for the new A&A Anniversary game that’s coming out in two weeks.  Things are going to be a little bit different.  :-)

See the AA50 Fact Sheet for more information.

[Sondrax]

yeah, but i actually dont see any info on that?
only that each bombardment dice must come hand in hand with a land unit.
other than whats mentioned to be new there… i thought LHTR would build the ground rules.

then again, i guess that new rule already makes enough sense so that this old workaround isnt needed anylonger :)

[Krieghund]

A lot of LHTR did go into AA50, but some things have changed.

[Lynxes]

Even if subs are somewhat improved from AAR, they are still not good enough. The problem with AA50 rules is that the attacker needs only one DD to kill enemy subs.
Although Germany shouldnt be able to build a mighty navy like UK+US without being punished by Russians, like it is now, not only the starting Kriegsmarine in the Baltic will be sunk asap, the subs will not survive either, because with one single DD in the attacking force UK will easily kill all German subs at the start of the game. Germany cannot build any new subs either cause they will not survive to the next round.

Hey, Subotai, please join us over at House rules where we try some different ideas about subs in AA50! Here:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12715.0

[Sondrax]

@Krieghund:

A lot of LHTR did go into AA50, but some things have changed.

actually… according to the AA50 rulebook, all seaunits do have to participate in the sea battle.

[Krieghund]

If there are defending surface warships (battleships, carriers, cruisers and/or destroyers) in the sea zone, the attacking sea units must battle them and may not bombard.  If there are only defending subs and/or transports in the sea zone, the attacking units have the choice to either attack them or ignore them.  If they attack, all units must attack and may not bombard.  If they ignore them, they may bombard.  See page 17.

[Sondrax]

ah yeah… i already forgot this was originally about subs lol
sorry for the confusion and thx for the answers :)

[Jaybird]

Thanx for the good clarification on subs so far. I have one more qyuestion that I don’t think I saw brought up. Since BOTH subs get an opening surprise shot, would it the following scenerio be correct?:
1 Cruiser attacks 1 sub. The defending sub gets a surprise shot 1st on the cruiser (should it choose to fight). If the sub rolls a “1”, the cruiser is dead with no retaliation shot and the sub wins?

[Imperious Leader]

yes. Only the destroyer negates the subs first strike. A cruiser would go down all hands lost.

[HolKann]

Hmm, I think the DD one-to-many ratio isn’t that big of a deal. Since subs can only shoot naval units, the DD is likely to be shot first (inexpensive), so the subs can flee immediately afterwards. Even if you manage to kill 2 subs in the first turn, if the DD is down, no big harm has been done, and the rest of the subs are safe!

Another question: Imagine 3 subs are attacking 1 American DD and 1 British AC wit 2 British ftrs. Are the ftrs allowed to hit the subs in the first round of combat?

[Krieghund]

@HolKann:

Another question: Imagine 3 subs are attacking 1 American DD and 1 British AC wit 2 British ftrs. Are the ftrs allowed to hit the subs in the first round of combat?

Yes, because there is a friendly DD in the battle.

[Sondrax]

ah that reminds me of another question as well:
air units can never be subject to submarine fire or?
so a single sub can shoot down an AC with 2 ftrs with only one shot if the fighters have no place to land or? since the defender HAS to chose the AC as casualty.

[Romulus]

This is how the ryule work in Revised. The AC has to be selected as casualty the fighter can make one move to try to land in a friendly territory, if they can not they are removed from the board.

[Krieghund]

That hasn’t changed.

[Funcioneta]

A question:

1942 scenario, J1, Japan’s sub attacks australian fleet (sub, tra). Can Japan’s sub ignore the UK sub and autokill the trannie? When submerges the attacking and defending subs? Has UK sub a chance of hitting before submerging?

Thanks

[Driel310]

I don’t think you can opt to ignore one unit and attack the other. It’s either attack all or none.

Attacking and defending subs can submerge before any dice are rolled, provided there are no destroyers present.

The UK sub has a chance of hitting provided he didn’t chose to submerge earlier plus the Japanese sub has to miss her first strike roll as well.