@AxisOfEvil:

Ahh. so in naval battles with air and subs, air units must be rolled seperately from naval units? This isnt in the rules either, but a logical conclusion from this thread. How else so you know what are air unit hits or not. On the converse, a DD present allows air to hit subs, but not vice versa. So if a DD is present, then subs must now roll seperately from other naval units. Well, i guess they are the only unit that defends at 1, so this is a mute point on defense, but on offense, it an annoyance. This is complicated!!

-) if no DD is present, subs anyway hit during surprise strike, so then you roll for them seperately anyway.
-) if a DD is present, you just need to remember how many hits you had with subs. as the amount of sub hits equals the amount of naval units you have to pick as casualties.
-) if there are air units, but NO DD, you have to roll air units seperately, so you know how many surface warships are subject to be removed from the game.

@Constantinople:

Then if both survive, and if either one decides to continue with Surprise Strike it negates the ability of the other to submerge and save itself and they both continue simultaneously again?

dont think thats true because submerging happens before anyone can fire…

The sequence is:

1. Attacking subs submerge (or not)
2. Defending subs submerge (or not)
3. Unsubmerged attacking subs fire
4. Unsubmerged defending subs fire
5. Casualties are removed
6. Attacking non-sub units fire
7. Defending non-sub units fire
8. Casualties are removed.

i think the main thing that changed since revised (ok… lets say since LHTR), is that the attacker can chose to ignore subs, if they are alone in a seazone or only accompanied by transports.
apart from that, we have:
-) air units can only fire upon subs if they attack/defend together with a DD
-) subs can never hit air units.
-) also keep in mind that only DDs prevent subs from submerging and surprise striking. and also in combat rounds 2+, a DD needs to be present, if you want to cancel the enemy subs ability to submerge and surprise strike!
-) subs can move through hostile territories also during combat movement, if no enemy dd is in the zone that its moving through.

ah that reminds me of another question as well:
air units can never be subject to submarine fire or?
so a single sub can shoot down an AC with 2 ftrs with only one shot if the fighters have no place to land or? since the defender HAS to chose the AC as casualty.

aye… maybe i got a little too worked up about that “surprise” thing… but considering germany usually also has 5+ fighters available and also at least 1 bomber right away… even if UK can build 8 tanks as defense, its gonna be tough to defend within 1 turn.

point is, the UK has to start binding a lot more IPC to london.

well germany could just buy those 5 bombers AFTER it developed paratroopers (in the same turn though… since techs now come into effect immediatly).
UK, US, jap and germany baught 2 of those research tokens and just rolled each round. thats pretty cheap and you get one tech every 3 rounds (in average)

i know its very unlikely for most capitols, but for london its a pretty high risk. i will for sure keep it in mind from now on at least…and i think you will too, after you suddenly see german paratroopers in london while the UK player already warms up the dice for his r&d tokens

yeah true hehe… since techs now come into effect immediatly, german paratroopers are a threat even though they are not on the board yet.
lets say germany saved some money and has 65IPC at its hands… 5 for the tech + some luck = 5 bombers/inf in london right this turn. thats an attack value of 25, so UK should  always have a def value of 30+ in london… thats 15 inf, or at least 45 IPC bound to this territory. a lot more if germany developed heavy bombers prior that.
if japan or italy are in control of wcan or panama and germany also has long range, the same counts for washington and germany doesnt even need a single ship.
needless to say that moscow and stalingrad need to live with this in mind as well.

ofc this works both ways, but with the axis capitols beeing surrounded by water or other “big” territories, its just not that imminent.

i think this just needs some sort of house rule…

well 12 IPC for a bomber is not much in AA50, with those NOs theres generally much more money available than it was in revised. having 50-60 income seems to be the norm for US, germany and jap. russia also remains around 30 for a long time. even italy should get 20+ for a few rounds at least… UK prolly wont stay at its 43IPC starting income, but should remain above 30ish anyway.

thx krieg, we kinda assumed that but werent sure
what may also need some clarification is: “the bombers must stop in the first hostile territory”. does that include hostile SZs?

i played aa50 yesterday with some friends… the german developed paratroopers in his first round. having played with paratroopers in revised already (when they were only able to transport inf during non combat movement) no one of us thought about those beeing a threat untill there were 9 bombers landing in London lol

i wonder though… is it really intended that bombers can also pickup their cargo along the way? (its not really mentioned in the rules… but neither denied)
germany is now able to permanently threaten uk without having a navy.

@Imperious:

Please scan the Set ups and player aids and use Mediafire.

If possible scan the rules and do the same

Then we can post our hearts content at Avalon Hill and show up slowpoke and WOTC because we got the info before they did anything to stop it.

im afraid i cant get that done soon enough, dont have scanner at home and got too much going on, the upcoming days