To make my rule-suggestions more concrete you would for each sub attacking a transport have:

2/6X7 IPCs sinking of transports
3,5 IPCs of convoy damage

5.83 IPCs inflicted damage.

So about equal damage to the cost of the sub. There is some chance your sub is sunk by destroyers before inflicting IPC damage, and also some chance you might survive the attack in the opponents turn against your sub and get a second attack, but it should add up to something around 5-6 IPCs on average.

And I don’t take away the normal sub abilities at all. I just assume that won’t be the reason you will be buying subs, since a destroyer or a fighter for your carrier is better value for money for naval combat. Throwing your subs into naval combat would be a desperate solution, when your back is against the wall.

so in your proposal subs can ignore ships and target transports?

They strike them and sink them, then roll for IPC damage?

where does your convoy exist? abstracted or in specific sea zones? what is maximum damage per zone?

Check out house rules…lots of ideas flowing on this.

To combine some of the ideas….

How about Submarines Attack @ 0, Defend @ 0 but have to be actively detected by destroyers to be sunk.  Each destroyer in a convoy negates one submarine.  Each destroyer in a convoy that rolls a 1 finds a submarine and sinks it. (Think AA Guns.)

If the submarines attacking ever exceed the number of destroyers in the convoy, ALL TRANSPORTS AND CARGO are lost.  (Destroyers can still attempt to detect and sink a submarine for each destroyer present.)

That way the submarines are still useless in surface combat, but they still have teeth and still force the enemy to put destroyers out to protect their transports.  (Examples to follow.)

EXAMPLES

Example 1:  America and England have a joint convoy in a sea zone.  Other ships may or may not be present in that sea zone, but have no bearing on this convoy or this convoy raid.  The convoy of transports are protected by 3 American Destroyers and 4 British Destroyers.  Germany attacks this convoy with 8 submarines.  This automatically sinks all 4 transports, however the seven destroyers roll seven dice, any 1’s result in a sunk submarine as well.

Example 2:  Japan has 7 destroyers and some transports in a sea zone.  America attacks with 6 submarines.  Since the defending destroyers out number the attacking submarines, all transports are 100% protected and each destroyer rolls a die.  Any ones result in sinking a submarine. (Yes, this means two destroyers roll against one submarine.)

Note, other than destroyers, transports, cargo on transports and submarines, no other units are effected at all.  You could have 400 battleships in a sea zone and have zero influence on attacking submarines with them.  Likewise, you could attack a battleship with 400 submarines and also have zero influence on it.

That is sure some good  out of the box thinking….

How bout to extend the idea… subs roll out separately and only against transports hitting them at 2 or less. ( super subs 3 or less)

after that then DD and CA roll locating and hitting at 1.(combined roll)

If subs submerge or retreat combat over as per oob.

If subs stay for a second round, then the same thing occurs except the DD/CA goes up to 2 or less.

lastly, subs can be totally ignored and dont block anything. they only do things when its their own turn.

Planes cant roll out with unless a DD or CA is present.

If a sub locates a transport the transports are gone. no special dispensations.

very simple?

My crazy sub idea (based on the above postings): subs can only attack transports, only DD’s can attack subs. To make it simple we let DD’s get a combined detect/attack value @1 (or @2?), similar to AA guns. But unlike AA guns each DD fires one shot each. Each sub that are not killed by DD’s, attack any transports in the SZ. Either the transports are autokilled, or each sub fire @4 or maybe @5?

If the trans are to be autokilled then this will (kind of) depict the real historical Battle of the Atlantic, allies almost lost the war because of  lost tonnage until they started making lots of small warships like DD’s, frigates, cruisers, corvettes etc. to escort the transports. In the beginning of the Battle of the Atlantic the transports were just sitting ducks if a German sub attacked them.

The subs need the first opportunity to strike and need an semi-escape for a one round deal.

If they get greedy they need to be punished somewhat

ASW hitting at 3-5 is wacked– making subs auto-deaths.

lastly, cruisers were capable ASW, and if you have some of them they should be able to ASW like in reality.

I have to also move this to house rules because that’s what the thread has become.

@Imperious:

I have to also move this to house rules because that’s what the thread has become.

could also prefix “AA50:” to thread name
coming from AA50 section the OP naturally did not mention its for AA50

So, if I am correct, perhaps the rule should be that undetected submarines can shoot at targets they choose to attack.  That means if you attack with 5 submarines and they are not detected, then all 5 can fire at a battleship simultaneously and then flee to safety; but only if you are attacking with only submarines and no other ships.

Yeah undetected submarines should have an optional target selection.
I am also with you on the existence of “fleet submarines” rather than all of them being slow and battle-useless convoy-hitting submarines.

I was thinking of Jennifer’s idea and i now think this is the best solution:

Submarines:
Attacking Submarines can only engage enemy transports or perform convoy raids on enemy sea zones designated as such. If they elect to attack transports perform the following sequence:

1. Subs each roll at 2 or less to hit. Transports are removed for each hit.
2. ASW units (Destroyers and Cruisers) each roll hitting at one. Remove subs.
3. Subs may elect to submerge or continue attack.

Note: If attacking ASW units engage the subs on their own turn follow the same procedure except ASW units can now be hit rather than transports.

Special Rules:
• If the active player has Super Subs Technology they attack at 3 or less.
• If the active player has ASW Technology, then planes can now roll for ASW as long as a ASW naval unit is present ( at a 1:1 basis). Also, all ASW units now roll at 2 or less to score a hit.

to clarify naval units (surface) can totally ignore enemy subs and transports if they like on their own turn. Neither can block.

Hey, IL, we also have a discussion of these things on the thread “Economic warfare expansion…” in House rules.

I think subs should do IPC damage as well as hit transports and this should be a separate attack from normal combat. Bombers do IPC damage but they typically can attack 4-6 times before they are shot down, whereas subs get killed more quickly and should have a more powerful attack.

Cruisers as ASW, not sure. Most escort ships were smaller than fleet destroyers, “destroyer escorts”. And the most powerful escort ship was the escort carrier. In my proposed rules, destroyers and fighters on carriers hit on a ‘1’ and one destroyer enables one fighter to fire. If you allow more ASW than that, I fear subs become too weak! Also cruisers I think should be bought for naval combat rather than ASW, which after all was their main use in the war.

yea i added in planes as attackers but if non transports are in the sea zone, they must attack as normal as per OOB.