Clearing the Dark Skies

[A Former User]

Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12.  Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.

So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Carolina:

Actually going to play-test with A3-4/D1/C12.  Gets the same air superiority bonus as tactical.

So without long-range fighter support they are reduced in attack.

Let us know how your G40 Dark Skies evolves with this reduced attack factor.
With OOB TacB, your game will be different than Barney play-test and XML file.

I anticipate more Fighters purchase to increase both units attack factor.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

@Baron:

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.o

Fine.
I suppose TacB keeps A1 in TBR and 1D6 damage on NB and AB.
Its attack factor is better than StB (1@1 for whole group),
so I believe 12 IPCs is a fair price.
And you keep an iconic A4 bomber unit.
Just not the traditional StB but the new bomber plane for the big game which is global.

Did you ever play first edition Global?
Was Dark Skies a strategy then?

[simon33]

Why is dark skies that devastating that we need to consider changing the rules to combat it?

On a slightly related note, there is a case to be made that interception is too weak and it would be fairer if fighters or all planes rolled at a two.

[baron Münchhausen]

@simon33:

Why is dark skies that devastating that we need to consider changing the rules to combat it?

On a slightly related note, there is a case to be made that interception is too weak and it would be fairer if fighters or all planes rolled at a two.

Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982

YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

@Young:

@Baron:

However,
I still would upgrade Tactical Bomber attack to 4 pure and simple.
TcB
Attack 4
Defense 3
Move 4-5
Cost 11 IPCs or 12 IPCs.
SBR A1 Damage 1D6 IPCs.

If they get the @4 attack outright, I would make them 12 IPCs.o

Fine.
I suppose TacB keeps A1 in TBR and 1D6 damage on NB and AB.
Its attack factor is better than StB (1@1 for whole group),
so I believe 12 IPCs is a fair price.
And you keep an iconic A4 bomber unit.
Just not the traditional StB but the new bomber plane for the big game which is global.

Did you ever play first edition Global?
Was Dark Skies a strategy then?

I played a lot of 1st edition, back then Sealion was the thing to do because it was easier to pull off and with the London NO, more profitable. Dark Skies is relatively new based on the statistical capabilities, strategic diversity, and cost comparison of Strategic Bombers to other units. I’ve never heard of such binge buying of one unit like this before.

[simon33]

@Baron:

Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982

YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.

I understand the idea, but I haven’t played with or against it. I just don’t see it becoming as devastating as what people are saying.

BTW, to threaten Gibraltar you have to start closer than WGermany don’t you?

[creeping-deth87]

@simon33:

@Baron:

Follow this link to Mr Roboto post:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37418.msg1507982#msg1507982

YG idea is to weakened StB dogfight capacity.

I understand the idea, but I haven’t played with or against it. I just don’t see it becoming as devastating as what people are saying.

BTW, to threaten Gibraltar you have to start closer than WGermany don’t you?

No you don’t. From West Germany you can hit 91 and land in either Normandy or Southern France.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

Hi everyone,
here is a few datas and summary collected after a lot of calculations and messed up tables, here is a real discovery to help any discussion over benefits and disadvantage of various SBR values. Hope you will find interesting numbers to provides some reasons behind intuitive conclusions on SBRs.

I found a useful analysis tool to compare average results of various SBR combat values and cost per unit:
Break even point and ratio:
In Strategic Bombing Raid, it is the number of attacking aircraft unit needed compared to intercepting Fg to get even odds on both sides (+0.00 IPC damage/SBR).
Break even ratio is a fraction number of Strategic bomber over a single intercepting fighter to reach an even odds of winning or loosing IPCs in a single air raid compared to the defender odds of inflicting damage. A ratio above 1 means that you need more than only 1 Bomber against 1 intercepting Fighter to reach a profitable threshold in SBR; while a ratio below 1 means that making a raid with at least 1 bomber against 1 Fighter interceptor is always advantageous for the attacker.

Offensive over defensive cost ratio for same combat values : it is a useful measure to evaluate the comparative higher cost of a given attack value over the same defensive value.
For instance, Tank gives a 1.00 offensive/defensive cost ratio because attack 3 and defense 3 is the same cost at 6 IPCs.
3 air attack over 3 ground defense cost gives Fg A3 C10 vs Tank D3 C6 = 1.67 off/defense IPC ratio.
4 air attack over 4 air defense cost gives StB A4 C12 vs Fg D4 C10 = 1.20 off/def IPC ratio.
2 artillery ground attack over 2 Infantry ground defense gives Art A2 C4 vs Inf D2 C3 = 1.33 off/def cost ratio.
2+2 ground attack over 2+2 ground defense gives Inf+Art A2+A2 C7 vs 2 Inf D2+D2 C6 = 1.17 off/def ratio.
So, this offense/defense cost ratio for the same value goes from 1 to up to 1.67 in regular combat.

Here is a very comprehensive table of various SBR values from stronger to weaker SBR from attacker POV:

---

G40.2 SBR OOB
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
D6+2: + 5.486 - 3.667 = +1.819 IPC damage/SBR, 1 vs 1
StB A1 doing SBR against 2 Fgs D1
D6+2: +4.85 - 5.056 = -0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
*9= -1.854, 9 vs 18
Net: -0.035
For 1 StB vs 1 Fg

• 9 StBs vs 18 Fgs
  Break even point: 10 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 19 Fgs D1 C10
  Break even ratio: 10/19= 0.526 StB/Fg
  0.526*12=
  6.32 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.632 offense/defense cost ratio

---

G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6+3
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

1 StB A0 damage D6+3 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
D6+3: +4.514 - 3.667 = +0.847 damage/SBR
*26= +22.022, 26 vs 26
1 StB Att 0 D6+3 doing SBR against 2 Fgs D1
D6+3: +3.762 -5.056 = -1.294 IPCs damage/SBR
*17= -21.998, 17 vs 34
Net: +0.024
For 26 StBs vs 26 Fg

• 17 StBs vs 34 Fgs
  Break even point: 43 StBs A0 D6+3 vs 60 Fgs D1
  43/60= 0.717 StB/Fg break even ratio
  8.6 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.86 offense/defense ratio

---

G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1 First Strike as AAA against up to 2 Fgs which ever the lower,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10

A1fs as AAA vs up to 2, D6+2 vs D2
1 StB  vs 1 Fg  0.199 IPCs damage/SBR
*10= +1.990, 10 vs 10
1 StB vs 2 Fgs  -0.662 IPCs damage/SBR
*3= -1.986, 3 vs 6
Net: +0.004
For 10 StBs vs 10 Fgs

• 3 StBs vs 6 Fgs
  Break even point: 13 StBs A1fs C12 D6+2 vs 16 Fgs D2 C10
  0.8125 StB/Fg break even ratio
  9.75 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.975 offense/defense IPC ratio

---

Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0 but 1 Attack @1 per bomber group
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

StB 1A1+xA0, D6+2 vs Fg D1

2 StBs A1+A0 against 3 Fgs D1
1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D1: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPCs, 1 vs 1
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPCs, 1 vs 2
OR
1 StB A1 vs 2 Fgs  D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs, 1 vs 2
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC, 1 vs 1
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.054
Break even point: 2 StBs A1/A0 C12 D6+2 vs 3 Fgs D1 C10
0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio with lower number of units
8 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.8 off/def ratio

1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746 + -0.054= -3.800, 2 vs 4 + 2 vs 3
Net: +0.00
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs

• 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
• 2 StBs vs 3 Fgs
  Break even point: 29 StBs A1 A0 C12 D6+2 vs 32 Fgs D1 C10
  0.9063 StB/Fg  break even ratio with higher number of units
  10.875 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.09 offense/defense ratio

---

G40.2 or 1942.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

StB A0 C12 D6+2 vs Fg D1
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fg D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746, 2 vs 4
Net: +0.054
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs

• 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
  Break even point: 27 StBs A0 C12 D6+2 vs 29 Fgs D1 C10
  0.931 StB/Fg break even ratio
  11.17 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.12 offense/defense cost ratio
  __

1942.2 OOB with D6+2 G40.2 damage, SBR HR
Bomber A1 First Strike,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A1 First Strike D2
Cost 10

1942.2 A1 first strike D6+2 vs Fg D2
1 StB vs 1 Fg: +4.977 - 4.778 = +0.199 IPC damage/SBR
*50=+9.950, 50 vs 50
1 StB vs 2 Fgs: +3.874 - 7.185 = -3.311 IPCs damage/SBR
*3= -9.933, 3 vs 6
Net: +0.017
For 50 StBs vs 50 Fgs

• 3 StBs vs 6 Fgs
  Break even point: 53 StBs A1fs C12 D6+2 vs 56 Fgs D2 C10
  0.946 StB/Fg break even ratio
  11.36 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.14 offense/defense cost ratio

---

1942.2 Triple A SBR
or Young Grasshopper G40.2 HR for StB not starting from Air Base
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

1 StB A1 D6 vs 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
*132= +3.036, 132 vs 132
StB A1 D6 against 2 Fgs D1
1 vs 2 : +2.025 - 5.056 = -3.031 IPCs damage/SBR
Net: -0.005
For 132 StBs vs 132 Fgs

• 1 StBs vs 2 Fgs
  Break even point: 133 StBs A1 C12 D6 vs 134 Fgs D1 C10
  133/134= 0.9925 StB/Fg break even ratio
  11.91 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.191 offense/defense ratio

---

Regular Kid’s Balance Mode
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10

2 StBs A1 against 1 Fgs D2
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR
*12=+39.648, 24 vs 12
1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D2
1D6+2: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC dam/SBR
*65= -39.650, 65 vs 65
Net: -0.002
For 24 StBs vs 12 Fgs

• 65 StBs vs 65 Fgs
  Break even point: 89 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 77 Fgs D2 C10
  1.156 StB/Fg break even ratio
  13.87 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.39 offense/defense IPC ratio

---

G40.2 or 1942.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1 as AAA against up to 2 Fgs which ever the lower,
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10

StB A1 as AAA up to 2 Fg, D6+2 vs 1 Fg D2
2 vs 1  +1.972 *4= +7.888, 8 StBs vs 4 Fgs
1 vs 1  -0.61 *13= -7.930, 13 StBs vs 13 Fgs
Net: -0.042
Break even point: 21 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 17 Fgs D2 C10
21/17= 1.235 StB/Fg break even ratio
14.824 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.48 offense/defense cost ratio
__

1942.2 OOB SBR with D6 damage
Bomber A1 First Strike
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12

Fighter A1 First Strike D2
Cost 10

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 Fg D2
2 vs 1 : +8.214 - 6.315 = +1.899 IPCs
*10= +18.99, 20 vs 10
1 StB A1fs against 1 Fg D2
OOB 1942.2 D6: +3.8 - 4.8 = -1 IPC damage/SBR
*19= -19.00, 19 vs 19
Net: -0.010
For 20 StBs vs 10 Fgs

• 19 StBs vs 19 Fgs
  Break even point: 39 StBs A1fs C12 D6 vs 29 Fgs D2 C10
  39/29= 1.345 StB/Fg break even ratio
  16.1 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.61 offense/defense cost ratio

__
Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR mostly implied from D6 Strat Bombers not starting from Air Base
Bomber A0 + 1A1 for StBs group
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

3 Strategic Bombers A0 D6 damage doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
3 vs 1: + 8.264 -7.666= +0.598 IPCs
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
2 vs 1: + 5.347 -5.666= -0.319 IPCs
*2= -0.638, 4 vs 2
Net: -0.040
7 StBs A0 vs 3 Fgs D1
And
1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.017
Break even point: 8 StBs A0 D6 vs 4 Fgs D1
Break even ratio: 8/4= 2.0 StBs/Fg
24 IPCs/10 IPCs = 2.4 offense/defense cost ratio

---

G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

3 StBs A0 Damage D6 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
3 vs 1: + 8.264 -7.666= +0.598 IPCs
2 StBs A0 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1
2 vs 1: + 5.347 -5.666= -0.319 IPCs
*2= -0.638, 4 vs 2
Net: -0.040
For 3 StBs vs 1 Fg

• 4 StBs vs 2 Fgs
  Break even point: 7 StB A0 D6 vs 3 Fg D1
  7/3= 2.333 StB/Fg break even ratio
  2.333*12=
  28 IPCs/10 IPCs = 2.8 offense/defense IPCs ratio

@Young:

What can be done to prevent German players from deploying a “Dark Skies” strategy? I don’t want to see it abolished altogether, but there should be something to slow down this gimmicky gambit.

I’ll get it started with the following ideas…

• Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase
• During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.
• All hits from an air defence of any kind must be applied to participating strategic bombers first.

YG,
If you plan to introduce some of your idea in one of your game, such as “During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.”
You shouldn’t combine it with the other:
“- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase”
Why?
I believe it makes SBR far too weak.
My analysis bring up that it is worse amongst many, including 1942.2 SBR. and regular Kid’s Balance Mode SBR.
In fact the D6 when not starting from an AB, make SBR as balance as it is in TripleA 1942.2 optional SBR. Adding another restraint would certainly push attacker to use StBombers in regular combat instead.

1942.2 Triple A SBR
or Young Grasshopper G40.2 HR for StB not starting from Air Base
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

1 StB A1 D6 vs 1 Fg D1
1 vs 1: +3.69 - 3.667 = +0.023 IPC damage/SBR
*132= +3.036, 132 vs 132
StB A1 D6 against 2 Fgs D1
1 vs 2 : +2.025 - 5.056 = -3.031 IPCs damage/SBR
Net: -0.005
For 132 StBs vs 132 Fgs

• 1 StBs vs 2 Fgs
  Break even point: 133 StBs A1 C12 D6 vs 134 Fgs D1 C10
  133/134= 0.9925 StB/Fg break even ratio
  11.91 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.191 offense/defense ratio
  It is pretty balance 1 StB for 1 Fg. And within usual offense/defense cost ratio.

Your other SBR in itself is much funnier because it provides more reason to intercept because risks are very much reduced against bomber only and you still get a pretty interesting odds of making damage for the attacker, if you keep all the way D6+2 damage:

Young Grasshopper HR
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A0 but 1 Attack @1 per bomber group
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A1 D1
Cost 10

1 StB A1 vs 2 Fgs  D1: + 4.850 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs, 1 vs 2
1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC, 1 vs 1
Sum: + 8.669 - 8.723 = - 0.054 IPC damage/SBR
Net: -0.054
Break even point: 2 StBs A1/A0 C12 D6+2 vs 3 Fgs D1 C10
0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio with lower number of units
8 IPCs/10 IPCs = 0.8 off/def ratio

1 StB A0 vs 1 Fg D1: + 3.819 - 3.667 = + 0.152 IPC
*25= +3.800, 25 vs 25
1 StB A0 vs 2 Fgs D1: + 3.183 - 5.056 = - 1.873 IPC
*2= -3.746 + -0.054= -3.800, 2 vs 4 + 2 vs 3
Net: +0.00
For 25 StBs vs 25 Fgs

• 2 StBs vs 4 Fgs
• 2 StBs vs 3 Fgs
  Break even point: 29 StBs A1 A0 C12 D6+2 vs 32 Fgs D1 C10
  0.9063 StB/Fg  break even ratio with higher number of units
  10.875 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.09 offense/defense ratio

With low number of units (2 or 3), you get a strong SBR (0.667 StB/Fg break even ratio) for attacker but weaker than OOB (0.526 StB/Fg break even ratio). And if there is more StBs and interceptors, it becomes weaker (0.906 StB/Fg break even ratio).

[baron Münchhausen]

I was thinking about a different condition to reduced StBs damage from D6+2 to D6.
Instead of requiring “- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase”
Interceptors can act mostly like Destroyer affecting Submarines, negating +2 bonus on damage.
When at least 1 Fg is intercepting, all StBs can only make 1D6 damage each.
That way, it can be a good incentive for interception just to reduced the heavier full damage when all defending planes duck and cover instead.
It virtually put almost all SBRs within the 1:1 break even ratio of 1942.2 TripleA SBR, which is right on the line for both attacker (need to invest 12 IPCs) and defender (need to invest 10 IPCs).

For example, against 5 StBs, a single Fg would cut +10 bonus damage to IC, that way it makes a good investment for defender since it already save the cost of a Fg if all StBs reach IC and bomb it.

It is also a way to overcome the big attacking bonus coming when there is as much escorting Fgs as there is interceptors, since it make StBs out of arms way of interceptors. With this rule, there is no need to make StBs first casualty.

About Fg escort and taking StBs as first casualty, don’t forget that intercepting is not mandatory and attacker have to divert Fg unit for a single hypothetical roll @1 from more useful rolls as an air support unit @3 in a regular combat. Denying Fg escort this ability to be taken as cannon fodder for an StB is a deterent for the attacker to use Fg for such random outcome in SBR. In fact, fighter escort main role is more as cannon fodder rather than as offensive weapon in these  circumstances (as well as Fg can better be used as a mobile attack support in other combat zone).

What do you think of this trick?
It has more scope than only solving India’s IC case from japanese StBs.

[baron Münchhausen]

• During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.

This feature is well balance in itself and if the rule mechanics is agreeable within your group, it can be possible to extend it to transports.
Instead of defenseless TPs, you get a single roll @1 for all defending TPs and you allow them 1 hit value per TP.
Keeping TP as taken last casualty, it can stay at 7 IPCs.
That way, you slightly boosted up Allies defending fleet.

If you want a more stronger counter for Dark Skies, let the owner choose TP casualty anytime, even before warships.

That is two ways to weaken StBs stack attack on fleet.

[Shin-Ji]

Why not just play Balanced Mod?  With that ruleset, Allied fleets can get very big - big enough that bombing them is possible, but not a slam dunk.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Shin:

Why not just play Balanced Mod?  With that ruleset, Allied fleets can get very big - big enough that bombing them is possible, but not a slam dunk.

Allied fleet is bigger and stronger because Allies NOs bonus are many and higher in Balanced Mod than OOB, right?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Baron:

I was thinking about a different condition to reduced StBs damage from D6+2 to D6.
Instead of requiring “- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase”
Interceptors can act mostly like Destroyer affecting Submarines, negating +2 bonus on damage.
When at least 1 Fg is intercepting, all StBs can only make 1D6 damage each.
That way, it can be a good incentive for interception just to reduced the heavier full damage when all defending planes duck and cover instead.
It virtually put almost all SBRs within the 1:1 break even ratio of 1942.2 TripleA SBR, which is right on the line for both attacker (need to invest 12 IPCs) and defender (need to invest 10 IPCs).

For example, against 5 StBs, a single Fg would cut +10 bonus damage to IC, that way it makes a good investment for defender since it already save the cost of a Fg if all StBs reach IC and bomb it.

It is also a way to overcome the big attacking bonus coming when there is as much escorting Fgs as there is interceptors, since it make StBs out of arms way of interceptors. With this rule, there is no need to make StBs first casualty.

About Fg escort and taking StBs as first casualty, don’t forget that intercepting is not mandatory and attacker have to divert Fg unit for a single hypothetical roll @1 from more useful rolls as an air support unit @3 in a regular combat. Denying Fg escort this ability to be taken as cannon fodder for an StB is a deterent for the attacker to use Fg for such random outcome in SBR. In fact, fighter escort main role is more as cannon fodder rather than as offensive weapon in these  circumstances (as well as Fg can better be used as a mobile attack support in other combat zone).

What do you think of this trick? It has more scope than only solving India’s IC case from japanese StBs.

I like it… will look into this.

[simon33]

Another House rule would be interceptors and escorting fighters roll at 2. Adds much more value to interception, and escorting fighters.

[baron Münchhausen]

@simon33:

Another House rule would be interceptors and escorting fighters roll at 2. Adds much more value to interception, and escorting fighters.

Already suggested in the Balanced Mode:

Regular Kid’s Balance Mode
G40.2 SBR HR
Bomber A1
Damage: 1D6+2
Cost 12

Fighter A2 D2
Cost 10

2 StBs A1 against 1 Fgs D2
1D6+2: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR
*12=+39.648, 24 vs 12
1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D2
1D6+2: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC dam/SBR
*65= -39.650, 65 vs 65
Net: -0.002
For 24 StBs vs 12 Fgs

• 65 StBs vs 65 Fgs
  Break even point: 89 StBs A1 C12 D6+2 vs 77 Fgs D2 C10
  1.156 StB/Fg break even ratio
  13.87 IPCs/10 IPCs = 1.39 offense/defense IPC ratio

It is a deterrent against SBR when there is 1 Fg interceptor above the number of StB.
And the same number of both StBs vs Fgs gives negative odds for the attacker.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

@Baron:

I was thinking about a different condition to reduced StBs damage from D6+2 to D6.
Instead of requiring “- Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase”
Interceptors can act mostly like Destroyer affecting Submarines, negating +2 bonus on damage.
When at least 1 Fg is intercepting, all StBs can only make 1D6 damage each.
That way, it can be a good incentive for interception just to reduced the heavier full damage when all defending planes duck and cover instead.
It virtually put almost all SBRs within the 1:1 break even ratio of 1942.2 TripleA SBR, which is right on the line for both attacker (need to invest 12 IPCs) and defender (need to invest 10 IPCs).

For example, against 5 StBs, a single Fg would cut +10 bonus damage to IC, that way it makes a good investment for defender since it already save the cost of a Fg if all StBs reach IC and bomb it.

It is also a way to overcome the big attacking bonus coming when there is as much escorting Fgs as there is interceptors, since it make StBs out of arms way of interceptors. With this rule, there is no need to make StBs first casualty.

About Fg escort and taking StBs as first casualty, don’t forget that intercepting is not mandatory and attacker have to divert Fg unit for a single hypothetical roll @1 from more useful rolls as an air support unit @3 in a regular combat. Denying Fg escort this ability to be taken as cannon fodder for an StB is a deterent for the attacker to use Fg for such random outcome in SBR. In fact, fighter escort main role is more as cannon fodder rather than as offensive weapon in these  circumstances (as well as Fg can better be used as a mobile attack support in other combat zone).

What do you think of this trick? It has more scope than only solving India’s IC case from japanese StBs.

I like it… will look into this.

Cool  :-)
Let me know if you get a chance to use it.
Keeping a better break even ratio than Balanced Mode SBR (Fg A2 D2), 0.9925 vs 1.156 StB /Fg.
It still provides an incentive to SBR at good odds when fighting 1:1 in large numbers.
For instance, 10 StBs vs 10 Fgs gives +0.02310= +0.23 IPC damage for this raid while
Balance Mode is at -0.6110= -6.1 IPCs for such raid.
Not an optimized attack at all.

And under no intercept situations, 10 StBs would get at 6D+2 damage +2.583 10= +25.83 IPCs damage so a fully damaged IC and AB on average, 26 IPCs.  That way, it worth something to intercept these 10 hypothetical bombers.
Even with only a single 1 Fg, you get 9 +0.917 = 8.253 (for 1D6 per StB damage on IC and bases)

• 8.062 (odds of killing the only Fg with 9 StBs rolls @1)
  +1*0.023 (odds of 1 StB vs 1 Fg) = +16.338 IPCs.
  A drop from +26 to 16 IPCs on avg for a single Fg interceptor, 10 IPCs less damage.
  A good defender’s investment to make.

Also, it helps Russia against German’s SBRs, as RetroFuhrerMeister pointed since it seems an issue in Dark Sky strategy.

@RetroFuhrerMeister:

@Baron:

Facilities roll AA Fire now at 2.
   Strategic Bombers can only attack at 2 against naval units.
  Strategic Bombers only receive a +2 bombing damage bonus if they depart from an operational Airbase.

What line of reasoning made you radically change the AA facilities to @2?

The other two seems enough to better balance StBs.
I can see from historical perspective reducing StBs vs naval units to A2 or from game POV to limit Dark Skies Strategy.
The first one, IC’s AA@2, completly negates StBs usefulness in SBR.
Hence, StBs stay unhistorically useful for regular combat against ground units.

It was to help aid the Soviet Union, who is destroyed by bombing faster than by actual combat, resulting in most of the axis victories you tend to see.

I’ll change the AA fire rule.

[Dauvio Vann]

@Young:

What can be done to prevent German players from deploying a “Dark Skies” strategy? I don’t want to see it abolished altogether, but there should be something to slow down this gimmicky gambit.

I’ll get it started with the following ideas…

• Bombers conducting SBRs only receive a +2 damage bonus if they have departed from an operational airbase
• During air battles with interceptors, roll 1 dice @1 per bomber formation instead of 1 dice @1 per bomber.
• All hits from an air defence of any kind must be applied to participating strategic bombers first.

Okay, I am a G40 novice. I can Germany afford bombers when they have to buy units against Russia???

[Argothair]

I think the idea is that sometimes the German economy is so much larger than the Russian economy (e.g., 60 IPCs vs. 30 IPCs) that the Germans can afford to keep buying enough land units to contain and push back Russia while also affording a bomber or two each turn. There’s often an asymmetry in the bombing patterns – if Germany conquers eastern Europe, then German bombers are in range of Moscow, but Allied bombers aren’t in range of Berlin from anywhere.

I want to throw some gasoline onto the unit redesign fire – what if you imagine the various types of modern A&A planes as each being their own type of “upgrade” from a basic biplane?

| Type | Cost | Attack | Defense | Move | Dogfighting | Special |
| Basic Biplane | 8 IPCs | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | None |
| Fighter | 10 IPCs | 2 | 3 | 4 | 2 | Can scramble, land on carrier, +1 defense at friendly airbase |
| Tactical Bomber | 11 IPCs | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | Can deal 1d6 industrial damage, land on carrier, +2 attack when paired with tank or fighting in a sea zone |
| Strategic Bomber | 12 IPCs | 2 | 3 | 6 | 1 | Can deal 1d6+2 industrial damage |

The concept I’m trying to develop here is that the planes are all built off of the same default template, and then they each have a couple of cool abilities that make them different from each other.