Battle for Atlantic 2.0

Narvik

I miss a real battle for the Atlantic, or shipping lanes all over the world, not just the printed convoy zones on the map.

I imagine using convoy zone tokens from HBG, either national or generic tokens, and place them in the Atlantic, or in case of Japan, in the Pacific.

Since this is tokens, the Raid can work in two ways. The OOB way where a surviving Sub roll dice in the Collect Income phase of the convoy owner, or in the Combat phase of the Sub, in which case you put some chips under the Convoy Zone token like it was a Facility.

To avoid confusion, all OOB units keep their current values and rules. The OOB Sub would sail on the surface for most of the time, and only submerge to avoid combat.
The OOB Destroyer is superior to the OOB Sub, and can deny all the Subs abilities.
The OOB aircrafts don’t have RADAR yet, and need a friendly Destroyer to kill Subs.

New ASW-Bomber unit, use the Liberator from HBG, have RADAR and can detect Subs on the surface without need of a friendly Destroyer. But can only roll one dice, and if it is a miss, the Sub submerge and battle ends. Unless a Destroyer is present. This plane can non-combat move to any seazone in range and do Combat Air Patrol during the other players turns. An enemy Sub must end its move in a seazone with a ASW-Bomber on a CAP the same way like it was a Destroyer present.

New Super Sub mark XXIII, can stay submerged all the time, and a rubber coating makes it invisible to Destroyers too. The Super Sub can move through seazones even if a Destroyer or ASW-Bomber on CAP is present. The Super Sub can only be attacked after it has made a first strike attack against enemy ships.

Also, and I cant stress this enough, a Sub can never fire against another Sub or an aircraft.

Narvik

In this picture, the Convoy Raid works the same way as the Facility SBR, you put a number of chips under it to assign damage, and the owner need to pay to remove this chips in his Purchase units phase, or else he will get less income. I figure a Convoy Zone is equal to 5 IPC of cargo. Or 6 if we want to keep similar to the Port and Airfield. Then the damage cap will be 10 or 12, because you need to replace the sunken merchantmen too, not just the cargo. So if a Convoy Zone has 2 chips under it, then UK will get 2 less IPC during income phase.

LHoffman

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36518.225

Some of this has been discussed lately in the G40 Redesign thread. I would start reading on page 16, 17 and 18… the battle of the Atlantic discussion goes on until about pg 22. FYI

Your suggestions are very different from anyone else’s I have seen, but they do make sense. I think it is a little cumbersome overall, but the SBR mechanic is known and accepted.

I also like having a physical marker for convoys that can be interacted with somehow. I think it makes an easily overlooked aspect of the game just as concrete as having pieces on the board.

HBGWILL

I think you guys will like the new GLOBAL WAR -2nd Edition (1936-1945) coming out in November from Historical Board Gaming. I am the designer on this and we play tested new convoy rules using convoy lines that address some of the issues in this thread.

I could not figure out how to post a picture here - but I put one of the German-Swedish convoy line on HBG’s Facebook Page just now - and I can’t post links here either but you can find it if you’re resourceful :-D

Now lets talk about how the convoy system works -

SUBMARINES can only hunt along convoy lines. There are new rules on submarines that prevent most surface groups from just going sub-hunting - which was highly ineffective. The way to take out submarines is to assign them as escorts (using an escort marker). When a submarine hunts along a convoy line it makes an opposed raiding roll (D6) and if it gets higher than the opponent it does that much damage. That roll is modified by the number of escorts along the line (they also get a free shot back) but there is a max of 1 escort per sea zone - this forces the defending player to spread his or her ships out. The maximum damage is listed on each named convoy line.
Players also get bonuses for having developed advanced submarines, radar, and having patrol aircraft on station.

The system works pretty well in play testing and more or less forces the British to employ their ships on convoy protection across a wide swath of the world instead of piling up for an amphibious invasion…

Narvik

@LHoffman:

Some of this has been discussed lately in the G40 Redesign thread. I would start reading on page 16, 17 and 18… the battle of the Atlantic discussion goes on until about pg 22. FYI

I know, but think that suggestions are way too complicated, I want something KISS like the rest of the game. What is good about houserules, we can all choose for our taste, and my taste is simple. But that thread do have tons of good thinking.

The Hessian

@HBGWILL:

GLOBAL WAR -2nd Edition (1936-1945)

1936 to 1945?! Wow! If one turn equals about 6 months, the this game will last for 20 turns*. How long does it take for five experienced gamers to play this monster?

*In my original post I’ve written that ths game will last for 20 hours; I wanted to say turns. Sorry guys!

HBGWILL

We will release 39 rules in a while for those who don’t want the 36 experience.
1936 to 1945 is a long game, I believe 18 turns. Some turns go quicker early on
as there is sometimes less to do than later on.

Narvik

@HBGWILL:

I could not figure out how to post a picture here - but I put one of the German-Swedish convoy line on HBG’s Facebook Page just now - and I can’t post links here either but you can find it if you’re resourcefulï¿½ Â ï¿½ :-D

I did take the liberty to visit that side and post your picture here, together with a pic of the original A&A Europe 1999 ed map, that got Convoy Zones. The idea of convoy lines printed on the map have been used before, like in the Attack from Eagle Games, and some Risk versions, but I don’t like it because ships in a convoy is not nailed to the ground like a railway, convoys are mobile and can easily move to another seazone if there are too many subs in the other zones. Yes, the convoy zones from Europe 1999 ed is printed on the map, but with the new convoy tokens from HBG we get the option to choose what seazones we want to sail trough. And I love that.

Narvik

It turns out I cant post two pics in the same post, so here comes the A&A Europe 1999 ed map with printed convoy boxes.

A quick comment to the HBG map, the railways look intriguing, but the convoy lines should go between Ports, not end in some remote areas

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HBGWILL

@Narvik:

It turns out I cant post two pics in the same post, so here comes the A&A Europe 1999 ed map with printed convoy boxes.

A quick comment to the HBG map, the railways look intriguing, but the convoy lines should go between Ports, not end in some remote areas

They do go between Ports (aka naval bases) - the convoy line shown here represents important ore trade between Sweden and Germany during World War II. Most of the other lines represent important trade routes.

HBGWILL

@Narvik:

@HBGWILL:

I could not figure out how to post a picture here - but I put one of the German-Swedish convoy line on HBG’s Facebook Page just now - and I can’t post links here either but you can find it if you’re resourceful� � � :-D

I did take the liberty to visit that side and post your picture here, together with a pic of the original A&A Europe 1999 ed map, that got Convoy Zones. The idea of convoy lines printed on the map have been used before, like in the Attack from Eagle Games, and some Risk versions, but I don’t like it because ships in a convoy is not nailed to the ground like a railway, convoys are mobile and can easily move to another seazone if there are too many subs in the other zones. Yes, the convoy zones from Europe 1999 ed is printed on the map, but with the new convoy tokens from HBG we get the option to choose what seazones we want to sail trough. And I love that.

It is true that convoys are not nailed down but given the size of the sea zones most ships took direct routes where they could - that is where we put the lines. I would love to see what you are doing with the convoy tokens and maybe include that as an option in one of our expansions

Narvik

@HBGWILL:

It is true that convoys are not nailed down but given the size of the sea zones most ships took direct routes where they could - that is where we put the lines.Â Â I would love to see what

I see your point.

On the pic below, the convoy tokens are put in 117 and 118, with the convoy in 117 escorted by a Destroyer, and accidentally attacked by a sub. Now, if UK get tired of being raided in the northern route, they can easily move the convoy tokens south to 107 and 108, as long they make a chain between America and UK. With printed lines you are stuck to a specific seazone. But I do see your points too

LHoffman

@HBGWILL:

I think you guys will like the new GLOBAL WAR -2nd Edition (1936-1945) coming out in November from Historical Board Gaming. I am the designer on this and we play tested new convoy rules using convoy lines that address some of the issues in this thread.

I could not figure out how to post a picture here - but I put one of the German-Swedish convoy line on HBG’s Facebook Page just now - and I can’t post links here either but you can find it if you’re resourceful :-D

Now lets talk about how the convoy system works -

SUBMARINES can only hunt along convoy lines. There are new rules on submarines that prevent most surface groups from just going sub-hunting - which was highly ineffective. The way to take out submarines is to assign them as escorts (using an escort marker). When a submarine hunts along a convoy line it makes an opposed raiding roll (D6) and if it gets higher than the opponent it does that much damage. That roll is modified by the number of escorts along the line (they also get a free shot back) but there is a max of 1 escort per sea zone - this forces the defending player to spread his or her ships out. The maximum damage is listed on each named convoy line.
Players also get bonuses for having developed advanced submarines, radar, and having patrol aircraft on station.

The system works pretty well in play testing and more or less forces the British to employ their ships on convoy protection across a wide swath of the world instead of piling up for an amphibious invasion…

Thanks for the post Will, I have been interested to know about this for some time. Seems rather complicated at first glance. I will reserve final judgement until I see the rules or play it though.

@Narvik:

@LHoffman:

Some of this has been discussed lately in the G40 Redesign thread. I would start reading on page 16, 17 and 18… the battle of the Atlantic discussion goes on until about pg 22. FYI

I know, but think that suggestions are way too complicated, I want something KISS like the rest of the game. What is good about houserules, we can all choose for our taste, and my taste is simple. But that thread do have tons of good thinking.

I am for simplicity too… to be honest I don’t even like OOB G40 mechanic because it involves calculations. I haven’t even read some of the later posts in the G40 Redesign because there is a lot of focus on TripleA playtesting and code, all of which is not really my specialty. Your suggestion of being able to move/replace convoys is intriguing.

HBGWILL

There are all kind of players - honesty we get a ton of people who email us profoundly upset that things are not MORE historically accurate and we get people who say things are too complicated - but the great news for everyone is you can really pick and choose what you want to do and make your own rules to suit your own style of play.

LHoffman

@HBGWILL:

There are all kind of players - honesty we get a ton of people who email us profoundly upset that things are not MORE historically accurate and we get people who say things are too complicated - but the great news for everyone is you can really pick and choose what you want to do and make your own rules to suit your own style of play.

You certainly can’t make everyone happy. Usually I am content to hear reasoning behind a given decision and I can accept things and/or adapt to them. You guys do some great work. Unfortunately, the applause is often never as loud as the complaining.

Narvik

@HBGWILL:

There are all kind of players - honesty we get a ton of people who email us profoundly upset that things are not MORE historically accurate and we get people who say things are too complicated - but the great news for everyone is you can really pick and choose what you want to do and make your own rules to suit your own style of play.Â

A big + to you for that :-D

Narvik

@HBGWILL:

I think you guys will like the new GLOBAL WAR -2nd Edition (1936-1945) coming out in November from Historical Board Gaming. I am the designer on this and we play tested new convoy rules using convoy lines that address some of the issues in this thread.

Looking at the map, I think some territories should have printed mountains or marshes, that effect the combat values. Or HBG should make terrain tokens that can be placed in some territories. Slightly off topic indeed

HBGWILL

Yes!! Global War-2nd edition rules provide rules for rivers, mountains, canals, and there are some impassable zones (Pripets).
Although (Spoiler) expect Partisans (out this spring) to be able to use the Pripets

baron Münchhausen

@Narvik:

In this picture, the Convoy Raid works the same way as the Facility SBR, you put a number of chips under it to assign damage, and the owner need to pay to remove this chips in his Purchase units phase, or else he will get less income. I figure a Convoy Zone is equal to 5 IPC of cargo. Or 6 if we want to keep similar to the Port and Airfield. Then the damage cap will be 10 or 12, because you need to replace the sunken merchantmen too, not just the cargo. So if a Convoy Zone has 2 chips under it, then UK will get 2 less IPC during income phase.

Hi Narvik,
If I really understand, for example, U-boat Sub makes 2 damage.
If UK doesn’t repair 2 IPCs damaged, his income will be reduced by 2 IPCs and as long as this Convoy is not repaired.
But if repaired, the income is still 2 IPCs less during the income phase but will be full on the next UK’s turn.
Is that right?

Or do you meant that over the basic, said 5 IPCs, additional damage can be done up to twice, here a cap of 10 IPCs. But the UK’s income cannot be reduced by more than 5 IPCs for that SZ? So, for instance a 2 IPCs damage is better to be paid on repair phase, instead of reducing income by 2 IPCs at the end of the turn. (Because, on the next turn, repairing still cost 2 IPCs. And no one want to pay twice (less income -2 this turn, and repair -2 next turn= -4 IPCs) for a single 2 IPCs Sub convoy attack.

If the case, I would rather go with a smaller 3 IPCs with a Cap at 6 IPCs, to be similar as possible to AB and NB.
Please give us a full example of your Convoy damage and repair mechanics.

Narvik

Hi Baron.

Really, I don’t know. Your guess is just as good as mine. I just miss the battle of the Atlantic in this game, and was tossing out some ideas.

Battle for Atlantic 2.0

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