13L G40 NT Arathorn (Axis) vs. Infrastructure (Allies +13)

[arathorn]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 3

Politics - Germans

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 2 armour, 4 artilleries and 9 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            3 transports moved from 111 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone
            3 armour moved from Western Germany to 112 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from Norway to 112 Sea Zone
            3 armour, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 112 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            3 armour and 3 infantry moved from 111 Sea Zone to Scotland
            2 fighters moved from 111 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
            1 fighter moved from Western Germany to United Kingdom
            3 bombers moved from Western Germany to United Kingdom
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to United Kingdom
            2 armour and 1 artillery moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            2 armour, 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from 113 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            2 armour, 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 111 Sea Zone to Scotland

Combat - Germans
            Air Battle in United Kingdom
                Germans attacks with 7 units heading to United Kingdom
                Air Battle is over, the remaining bombers go on to their targets
            Strategic bombing raid in United Kingdom
                1 tactical_bomber killed by AA
                Bombing raid in United Kingdom rolls: 6,8,5 and causes: 16 damage to unit: factory_major
                Bombing raid in United Kingdom causes 16 damage total.
            Battle in Scotland
                Germans attack with 5 armour, 1 artillery and 6 infantry
                British defend with 1 airfield and 1 infantry
                Germans win, taking Scotland from British with 5 armour, 1 artillery and 6 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Cleaning up after air battles

Non Combat Move - Germans
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Changing unit bombing damage for these British owned units to: factory_major = 19
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            2 fighters moved from United Kingdom to 111 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 113 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from Western Germany to 113 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry and 4 transports moved from 113 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
            3 mech_infantrys moved from Normandy Bordeaux to 110 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry, 3 mech_infantrys and 4 transports moved from 110 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys moved from 111 Sea Zone to Scotland
            1 fighter moved from United Kingdom to Holland Belgium
            3 bombers moved from United Kingdom to Western Germany
            2 aaGuns moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
            1 submarine moved from 110 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 108 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
            3 aaGuns moved from Germany to Slovakia Hungary
            6 infantry moved from Romania to Slovakia Hungary

Place Units - Germans
            3 infantry placed in Germany
            2 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry placed in Western Germany
            1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Normandy Bordeaux
            2 artilleries placed in Western Germany

Turn Complete - Germans
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 0
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 97 Sea Zone. Rolls: 6,5
            Germans collect 46 PUs; end with 46 PUs total
            Trigger Germans 5 Swedish Iron Ore: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 51 PUs
            Objective Germans 1 Trade with Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 56 PUs

[Major Major]

a small issue happened on frances turn.
I meant to decalre war on japan but plowed thru the turn quickly and forgot.
May I edit the french at war with japan, as i meant?

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

a small issue happened on frances turn.
I meant to decalre war on japan but plowed thru the turn quickly and forgot.
May I edit the french at war with japan, as i meant?

I think I have to say no, because the German turn was based on it.
I’m lenient with edits as long as dice has not been rolled, or if it doesn’t affect anything.
Both things have happened here. Sorry man.

[Major Major]

france being at war with japan affected germanys turn?

[arathorn]

Yes. I will explain how after Russia has moved.

[Major Major]

i guess you will win.  i dont like playing this style game.
Luckily there are enough players interested in winning by strategy, not just winning for false status to play against.

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

i guess you will win.  i dont like playing this style game.
Luckily there are enough players interested in winning by strategy, not just winning for false status to play against.

Excuse me! This is a matter of strategy and tactics.
You see, the way I see it you didn’t realise the consequences of your moves until after my G3, since you had expected Germany to take London (100%) and by that bring Russia and USA into the war. That is why you DOW’d with Anzac, since you were sure USA and Russia would be in the war with London falling.

But suddenly you gave Germany the incentive of waiting one more round to keep USA and Russia out, and you let Japan have a 98% on India without having to worry about USA. That is what you realised, and that was your tactical blunder that I followed up on with my German move. Also, Germany will now for sure take London G4, and be very strong against Russia and USA.

I am sorry man, but this was about strategy, and nothing else. I don’t go for cheap wins - however, I do take the wins I have honestly earned, even when they come fast.

If you want to continue, that is what I want to do, but if you want to call it, then I’ll take the win, though I’d prefer to see it played out.

[boldfresh]

Infrastructure, i don’t understand why you did an unprovoked DOW on japan with UK pac and anzac when you didn’t even attack?  what am i missing?

[arathorn]

@Boldfresh:

Infrastructure, i don’t understand why you did an unprovoked DOW on japan with UK pac and anzac when you didn’t even attack?  what am i missing?

He did it because he wanted to collect the NO, thinking it to be safe, since he “knew” that USA, Russia and France would enter the war when London would fall on G3 - but then Germany didn’t take London, and suddenly the Allies were in BIG trouble.

[boldfresh]

hmmm ok, seems infra made an incorrect “assumption”.  would that be accurate to say infra?

[Major Major]

no it was still my plan as it was all along to declare war with france and have a blocker.  Even without germany taking britian, I needed the french destroyer to prevent india falling.  I just rushed frances turn and then realized it as i left the house to go to work., Arathorn had taken germanys turns by the time i got back online.  Declaring war with france had absolutely nothing to do with what germany did.  London falling would not have caused france to be at war on japans turn.  USA and Russia will still not be at war.  What am I missing?

[arathorn]

When you DOWed with Anzac, you opened up for Germany waiting and Japan attacking primarily since USA would then not be at war in combat till A4.

I do understand where you’re coming from, but it’s still a tactical mistake, on the same level as forgetting to put up an important fleet block. Since it influenced my decisions and overall plan, I am still leaning toward keeping it as is, as I get to follow up on a tactical blunder. Sometimes we have to suffer the consequences of our mistakes, and even though it’s a friendly atmosphere, we’re still at “war”.

Had we played on board, at a tournament, and someone forgot to declare war, I don’t think that would have been so easily allowed in retrospect after another turn had been played.

Do you want to continue?

[Major Major]

It was not a tactical blunder it was a mental mistake.  If you are saying that you dont believe me that i meant to DOW with France but missed it then you dont understand tactics.  I state again that if you had taken britian it would not have changed that i set my entire pacific set up to use that french dest as a blocker.  WHat you did with germany did not change that situation in any way.  I planned that blocker screen seperate of anything on the europe map.  I do it in most games.  It was my plan to decalre war with anzac and france to keep japan out of india and the dei.  If me not declaring war with france truly yruly affected your german turn, explain to me what you would have done different if france had declared war on japan?

If you consider that a tactical error you are incorrect.  it was a human error.  If you want a win more than a good game the way it was meant to play out.  Then say that now, so i dont waste more of my time.

[arathorn]

@Infrastructure:

It was not a tactical blunder it was a mental mistake.  If you are saying that you dont believe me that i meant to DOW with France but missed it then you dont understand tactics.  I state again that if you had taken britian it would not have changed that i set my entire pacific set up to use that french dest as a blocker.  WHat you did with germany did not change that situation in any way.  I planned that blocker screen seperate of anything on the europe map.  I do it in most games.  It was my plan to decalre war with anzac and france to keep japan out of india and the dei.  If me not declaring war with france truly yruly affected your german turn, explain to me what you would have done different if france had declared war on japan?

If you consider that a tactical error you are incorrect.  it was a human error.  If you want a win more than a good game the way it was meant to play out.  Then say that now, so i dont waste more of my time.

Even if you were to categorise it as a mental mistake and not a tactical one, it doesn’t make a difference - it was a mistake and it was a “move” that you didn’t do that caused you trouble. Such things happen, and it’s a part of the game.

I was going to take out London, but the combo of you declared war with Anzac and not with France caused me to delay it. It was a package deal.

You can check out all of my games that I have played, and you’ll see that I am a lenient guy, who’s reasonable and trying to play a gentleman’s game and be a good sport. But you are throwing accusations and insinuations against me, and there is no reason to be impolite. I’ve treated you with respect, like I try to treat everybody.

Look at what you’ve said, and try to see if that encourages an understanding and accommodating treatment of the issue from my side:

@Infrastructure:

i guess you will win.  i dont like playing this style game.
Luckily there are enough players interested in winning by strategy, not just winning for false status to play against.

This style of game? What are you insinuating?
So I am only interested in playing to win for a false status?
And you’re lucky to have “enough other players” so you don’t have to deal with me?

@Infrastructure:

If you are saying that you dont believe me that i meant to DOW with France but missed it **then you dont understand tactics. **

If you want a win more than a good game the way it was meant to play out.  Then say that now, so i dont waste more of my time.

I don’t understand tactics?
I want a win more than a good game?
Is me placing pressure on you because of my strategy a waste of your time?

Such insults aren’t exactly strong cards to play if you are trying to have me change my mind and let you edit.

[gamerman01]

@Infrastructure:

If me not declaring war with france truly yruly affected your german turn, explain to me what you would have done different if france had declared war on japan?

Couple thoughts on this.  First, the burden should not be on your opponent, who did not make a mistake but denied your request on the basis that the next turn had been done and dice had been rolled.
Second, Arathorn said he could explain it after Russia goes.
Third thought, isn’t this all about a French destroyer that could block an invasion of India?  It is not hard to believe that such a thing could affect the German turn - how aggressive the Axis player wants to be, anticipating that he will be able to take India.  If he allows you now to make a retroactive DOW that blocks off India from falling on this Japan turn, it is not unbelievable that he would have wanted to handle Germany differently

If you consider that a tactical error you are incorrect.  it was a human error.  If you want a win more than a good game the way it was meant to play out.  Then say that now, so i dont waste more of my time.

Type of error does not matter.  When I have a unit on the other side of the board that I don’t usually have, and I forget to move it, I can’t expect my opponent to allow me to move it later 100% of the time.

But this is a tough one.  What it comes down to, though, is that Infrastructure “took his finger off the queen” (chess analogy).  It is common practice in league play to allow changes/edits to your opponent even after he takes his finger off the queen.  But once the next player starts making his move and especially if he has rolled any dice, he has no obligation, not even a gentlemanly one, to grant retroactive changes.  He starts making his move based on the set of facts, the board situation, that is presented him at the beginning of his turn.
Now it would be really nice of Arathorn to grant the change and re-do his Germany turn, but he is under no obligation to do so.  (I haven’t looked at your map or his German turn)  And it is not cheap for him to deny your request.

I have been burned by neglecting to declare war against Japan with France before (allowing the Japanese to ignore my French destroyer the next turn).  You only make that mistake once.

[arathorn]

I think you made the right assessment Gamerman.

Are we continuing Infrastructure?
I could have given you the 2nd bump today, but haven’t done it.

[Major Major]

2 things to say.

Know this anyone who reads this thread;  I would and will always allow an opponent to redo a move like this.  I find it ridiculous and repulsive not to.

Everything arathorn(not even close to deserving the name of that or any Numenorean) has said makes it clear he knows that I made a small mental slip that will cost me the game and he would rather have that win then truly defeat me.  So when I lose this game I will have no distaste in my mouth as I did not lose against a worthy opponent.

[Major Major]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 3

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 5 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Amur to Korea
                  Russians take Korea from Japanese
            17 infantry moved from Amur to Manchuria
                  Chinese take Manchuria from Japanese

[Major Major]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 3

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 5 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Amur to Korea
                  Russians take Korea from Japanese
            17 infantry moved from Amur to Manchuria
                  Chinese take Manchuria from Japanese

Combat - Russians
            Trigger Russians Conquer Japanese Territory By Mongolia: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_Mongolia_May_Change_To_Russians_Control_Switch attached to Russians

Non Combat Move - Russians
            2 aaGuns moved from Amur to Manchuria
            1 fighter moved from Amur to Yenisey
            1 fighter moved from Yenisey to Timguska
            1 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Kansu
            1 infantry moved from Tsinghai to Kansu
            1 infantry moved from Kazakhstan to Tsinghai
            1 aaGun moved from Kazakhstan to Tsinghai
            1 fighter moved from Russia to Novgorod
            1 aaGun, 1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Western Ukraine to Eastern Poland
            3 infantry moved from Ukraine to Bessarabia
            2 infantry moved from Rostov to Ukraine
            1 aaGun and 10 infantry moved from Baltic States to Eastern Poland
            1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from Novgorod to Baltic States
            1 cruiser moved from 114 Sea Zone to 115 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk

Place Units - Russians
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Novgorod
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Ukraine
            1 armour and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Volgograd
            Russians undo move 1.
            Russians undo move 2.
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Volgograd
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Novgorod
            1 infantry placed in Russia
            Russians undo move 1.
            Russians undo move 1.
            Russians undo move 1.
            1 mech_infantry placed in Volgograd
            2 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Ukraine
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Novgorod
            2 infantry placed in Russia
            Russians undo move 5.
            Russians undo move 4.
            3 infantry placed in Novgorod
            Russians undo move 4.
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry placed in Novgorod
            2 infantry placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 1
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 5,1,5,5,6,6,6
            Russians collect 39 PUs (1 lost to blockades); end with 39 PUs total
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Timguska: 1 fighter
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Yenisey: 1 fighter
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

2 things to say.

Know this anyone who reads this thread;  I would and will always allow an opponent to redo a move like this.  I find it ridiculous and repulsive not to.

Everything arathorn(not even close to deserving the name of that or any Numenorean) has said makes it clear he knows that I made a small mental slip that will cost me the game and he would rather have that win then truly defeat me.  So when I lose this game I will have no distaste in my mouth as I did not lose against a worthy opponent.

infra, i can say that Arathorn is worthy of the title, and i think that he almost certainly would have granted your request had you asked nicely.  when you are the one in the wrong, it almost never pays to demand that things be done.