Real league game situation - dispute going to league admin

[Omega1759]

@Boldfresh:

thanks for the thoughts omega.  better keep watching this game a little longer.

Don’t worry, I’ll keep watching  :-D

Can you guys resume the game?  :-D

[boldfresh]

@Omega1759:

@Boldfresh:

thanks for the thoughts omega.  better keep watching this game a little longer.

Don’t worry, I’ll keep watching  :-D

Can you guys resume the game?  :-D

i would love to, but apparently Me is digging in his heels on this issue and wants to wait for commander jenn to give an OFFICIAL ruling.  :roll:  i am in stali’s camp, would much rather work it out reasonably between the two of us, but he seems to have little to no interest in doing so.

[boldfresh]

@Ziggurat:

@Boldfresh:

@Boldfresh:

@Ziggurat:

@Boldfresh:

hmmm interesting thought karl - BUT, wouldn’t that apply only if the player SCRAMBLED?� then to say, hold on i’m gonna change those moves, i want to send more at the zone you are scrambling into….�

now THAT would be dirty.� however, if a player is sending LESS into a zone where the player originally didn’t scramble, how could the move even possibly be dirty?

I’ll only speak in general as I haven’t been involved in the game, but I would be quite peeved if someone removed pieces from a sea battle after I declined a scramble (and as anyone who has played me can vouch for, I am VERY relaxed about edits and changing minds). Knowing a player’s intent to scramble is a glimpse into their overall strategy and risk aversion. After knowing that there is no threat (or no appetite for risk), the piece you moved could now be used to shore up another theater that could previously have been weak as a result of needing to overcompensate because of the unknown of scrambling. You have gained a piece of information that shouldn’t have been available prior to combat moves. Scrambling is the defensive version of threat projection. If you don’t know whether or not I want to scramble, you have to over commit to insure you don’t get diced. I’m sure there was no malice intended here, but this situation gives the impression of trying to game the system.

also there’s nothing to really glimpse into here.  i understand your point, but this is a very extreme case.  i knew very well that there was no way he would scramble in the first case and was so sure he wouldn’t scramble the second time i just said if you wanna go ahead and scramble and run the sea battle before your next turn go ahead.

in other words, it could be conceivable one could game the system, especially if the defender scrambles and the attacker wants to ADD to the battle, but this is just about as extreme as you could imagine since it would have been lots of boats against only 2 ftrs max.

I agree, this is a very extreme case and I would let you change the move (especially since I think your confidence at winning said game is highly irrational :P). However, ME does certainly have the right to not be as flexible. I was answering the question about how removing units from a scramble situation could ever be viewed as dirty. In my mind, changing any part of a scramble situation (after receiving an answer) where the outcome is even the slightest bit in doubt is not right. This does bring up one curiosity to me though. Why bother even asking the first time for scramble orders? If there’s zero chance they’ll scramble, just get on with it and can edit in if they want to suicide. It seems like a little less communication would’ve prevented this from ever being an issue :P.

you never know when a guy might make a mistake and do something stupid right?  why not give him the chance to do so, however unlikely you think it might be that he will do it?  :-P

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

I agree, this is a very extreme case and I would let you change the move (especially since I think your confidence at winning said game is highly irrational :P). However, ME does certainly have the right to not be as flexible. I was answering the question about how removing units from a scramble situation could ever be viewed as dirty. In my mind, changing any part of a scramble situation (after receiving an answer) where the outcome is even the slightest bit in doubt is not right. This does bring up one curiosity to me though. Why bother even asking the first time for scramble orders? If there’s zero chance they’ll scramble, just get on with it and can edit in if they want to suicide. It seems like a little less communication would’ve prevented this from ever being an issue :P.

exactly - if he’s so sure he has the game won, i wonder why he is making such a big deal out of it.  hmmmmm

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

@Boldfresh:

I agree, this is a very extreme case and I would let you change the move (especially since I think your confidence at winning said game is highly irrational :P). However, ME does certainly have the right to not be as flexible. I was answering the question about how removing units from a scramble situation could ever be viewed as dirty. In my mind, changing any part of a scramble situation (after receiving an answer) where the outcome is even the slightest bit in doubt is not right. This does bring up one curiosity to me though. Why bother even asking the first time for scramble orders? If there’s zero chance they’ll scramble, just get on with it and can edit in if they want to suicide. It seems like a little less communication would’ve prevented this from ever being an issue :P.

exactly - if he’s so sure he has the game won, i wonder why he is making such a big deal out of it.   hmmmmm

seems, honestly, like a silly and petty thing to do.  my number 1 theory is that he’s just a little in shock and feeling embarrassed by the fact that he didn’t realize he only had 7 victory cities.  i believe that when he comes to his senses and thinks about it a little bit, he’ll realize that insisting on not allowing the changes “because of the given scramble choice” is a very weak position to try to defend.

[boldfresh]

bump again to Jenn.  she hasn’t been on for about a week.

[Jennifer]

@Boldfresh:

bump again to Jenn.  she hasn’t been on for about a week.

Have too.  I’m on once a day except Saturday and Sunday.  I may not POST for a week, but this dispute did start just before the weekend.

Currently you have a ruling in your thread.  Unless there’s further details that either side want to point out that I may have missed to alter the result.

[boldfresh]

breaking news - someone consulted the RULEBOOK!

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30854.new#new

[miamiumike]

To me, because the decision to scramble or not to scramble can be influenced by not only what is attacking the specific sea zone BUT also a) what a purchase was and b) what other combats were declared, it does not matter if you are attacking with more or less - the decision to scramble needs to be based on a concrete set of combat moves.

If ANY combat changes - if even if it does not involve the sea zone where a scramble could occur, the defender should have the option to reconsider and decide again if they want to scramble and, if so, how many fighters to use.

My humble opinion….

MM

[boldfresh]

totally agreed Mike.

that is not the issue that was at hand.  Me was trying to say that because he gave a scramble decision (which was NOT to scramble) that it locked in all my combat moves and i could not revise the move, even though i had not begun rolling.  AND even though he originally agreed to allow it.  Then when he saw the move, he reversed his decision.  :roll:

but the crux of the issue, and the reason that this does not even need to be resolved by an admin, is that the rule states that if the defender SCRAMBLES, then nothing can be changed.  but again, it would only be a very hard core unfriendly game where both players would not be able to come to a reasonable conclusion on a matter such as this - so i guess Me is really ready to throw down.

[wheatbeer]

Do you have the page number Bold? (not doubting you, was just curious where I’d missed it)

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

totally agreed Mike.

that is not the issue that was at hand.  Me was trying to say that because he gave a scramble decision (which was NOT to scramble) that it locked in all my combat moves and i could not revise the move, even though i had not begun rolling.  AND even though he originally agreed to allow it.  Then when he saw the move, he reversed his decision.   :roll:

but the crux of the issue, and the reason that this does not even need to be resolved by an admin, is that the rule states that if the defender SCRAMBLES, then nothing can be changed.  but again, it would only be a very hard core unfriendly game where both players would not be able to come to a reasonable conclusion on a matter such as this - so i guess Me is really ready to throw down.

to FURTHER clarify Mike, I gave him the chance to scramble the second time, where i brought LESS into the zone.

[boldfresh]

@wheatbeer:

Do you have the page number Bold? (not doubting you, was just curious where I’d missed it)

it’s under “SCRAMBLE” on page 16.

[miamiumike]

Actually, I think my point was spot on - yes, Me decided to NOT scramble. But - if other combat moves are changed before dice are rolled (which I think is fine, really), he should have the option to again decide if he wants to scramble. Other combats (new, changed or removed) MAY have an influence on if he wants to scramble - the opponent should be able to make that decision again…

MM

[boldfresh]

@miamiumike:

Actually, I think my point was spot on - yes, Me decided to NOT scramble. But - if other combat moves are changed before dice are rolled (which I think is fine, really), he should have the option to again decide if he wants to scramble. Other combats (new, changed or removed) MAY have an influence on if he wants to scramble - the opponent should be able to make that decision again…

MM

TOTALLY 100% agreed.  And i did give him that option.

I’m just saying, you don’t understand what ME1945 was asserting.  He was trying to say that I COULD NOT ALTER my move (even though he previously told me to go ahead) because he had given a decision NOT to scramble.  :roll:

[miamiumike]

Ah - OK - in that case I would agree - UNLESS there was some agreement beforehand that once submitted, combat could not be changed at all (even before dice were rolled).

I could also see a situation where a player would (in the absence of any specific understanding) say that combat cannot be changed after submitted. That would be pretty hard-core, and not even in tournaments (FTF) have I seen this, but, I could see where someone would have a case to do that - even though I think it violates the spirit of the game.

MM

[boldfresh]

Mike, the rules SPECIFICALLY state the following:

“The attacker may not change any combat movements or attacks AFTER THE DEFENDER HAS SCRAMBLED”.

this is clearly to protect the defender from the situation where he has scrambled and caught the attacker off guard.  at which point the attacker says, HEY i wanted to send more to the zone!

for this reason, if the defender DOES NOT SCRAMBLE, then there is no binding combat move post and just like any other combat move post, it can be changed at will as long as no dice were rolled.

[boldfresh]

@wheatbeer:

Do you have the page number Bold? (not doubting you, was just curious where I’d missed it)

to my knowledge we do not consult the league moderator on issues that are clearly addressed in the rules.  :roll:

[Ziggurat]

@Boldfresh:

Mike, the rules SPECIFICALLY state the following:

“The attacker may not change any combat movements or attacks AFTER THE DEFENDER HAS SCRAMBLED”.

this is clearly to protect the defender from the situation where he has scrambled and caught the attacker off guard.� at which point the attacker says, HEY i wanted to send more to the zone!

for this reason, if the defender DOES NOT SCRAMBLE, then there is no binding combat move post and just like any other combat move post, it can be changed at will as long as no dice were rolled.

Bold, I am very uncomfortable with the interpretation you are trying to put forth for the same reasons I was talking about on previous pages. Knowing how many planes your opponent is willing to scramble is incredibly valuable information that you didn’t have prior to your move. I view scrambling as something that happens automatically and the decision is 0-3, not yes or no. When you ask for a scramble and someone declines they have decided to scramble 0 planes and combat move is now locked in unless they are magnanimous enough to let you make alterations. In THIS case, I would let you, but I still believe that ME is well within his rights to deny.

[boldfresh]

you know what Zigg - let’s post this into the FAQ and request an official answer from Kreighund than.  I believe that my interpretation of the rules is EXACTLY correct an that this is EXACTLY what is intended by the writers.  If I am wrong, then I will happily eat those words.

I would agree with you on one thing - here i believe is your concern.  attacker starts out sending overwhelming force, defender says no scramble.  attacker then says, wait, i wanna send less.  defender says ok i still don’t scramble.  attacker continues until he realizes at exactly which point the defender will scramble.  i do not think the rules specifically address this - and so it will be helpful to ask the question.  To me, that is gameplay ethics that should be handled between two reasonable players.  However, the defender if he thinks he is being taken advantage of, could always scramble a single plane and lock the moves in if he really felt it necessary.

Nevertheless, it is very clear that nothing of that nature was occurring here, so it is fairly useless to be discussing it as it relates to this specific case no?