I take this idea further and use my bid to add 3 artilleries to the Russian stack.
It makes it a serious offensive force and a harder defensive force to deal with.
It allows US to project more power in the Atlantic because it shows Japan down.
Huge Russian Stack of Infantry Problem
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I think what they are saying to do in this situation is to leave your ground army near moscow, but try and also surround it while trading territories with attrition battles. Russia won’t be able to lunge because your army will still be very near, but meanwhile you are still cutting at Russian ipcs. 10 inf a round is 30ipcs, and if Germany has all of Eastern Europe then Russia shouldn’t be near that total, even with Korea and possibly some middle east territories.
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I think what they are saying to do in this situation is to leave your ground army near moscow, but try and also surround it while trading territories with attrition battles. Russia won’t be able to lunge because your army will still be very near, but meanwhile you are still cutting at Russian ipcs. 10 inf a round is 30ipcs, and if Germany has all of Eastern Europe then Russia shouldn’t be near that total, even with Korea and possibly some middle east territories.
The problem is, Russia can easily have several dozen (70+) infantry in Moscow, plus whatever else they managed to retreat back there. Sure, Germany can ruin the rest of Russia’s economy. But the fact that Russia can stack so much there so easily makes it pretty hard for Germany to take and hold 8 victory cities, especially considering the fact that in general longer games favor the Allies because of their economic advantage.
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When the Russians pull back to Moscow and turtle all of their forces, it makes it makes it extremely hard for the Germans to deliver the quick knock out blow against the Allies. Even if the Germans are extremely aggressive in the early game with a turn 2-3 Barbossa, it can be very hard to crack Moscow by the 6th turn… the effect is that it gives the US an opportunity to really get into the war and make life miserable for Germany on the western front.
Here are a couple of things that I think helps topple Russia:
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Do not bother with buying a Major IC with Germany in Romania - I don’t think that it is worth the money
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When launching Barbossa, take the Southern Route as quickly as possible… once you grab the national objectives in the south (controlling Cacuses) you will generally be producing double what the Russians are pumping out.
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Strategic bomb Moscow - This may not be possible if the Russian player is stacking fighters there, but if you get the opportunity it is worthwhile.
I know that there has been some debate on the board about whether it is worthwhile to attack Russia with the Japanese; however, if the Russian player is adopting a total turtle strategy I say hit them from the East.
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I know that there has been some debate on the board about whether it is worthwhile to attack Russia with the Japanese; however, if the Russian player is adopting a total turtle strategy I say hit them from the East.
If they are truly turtling 100% in Moscow then the Germans can also race past Moscow with a handful of tanks to grab territories. This is assuming the Russians pulled back the far east troops as well.
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I know that there has been some debate on the board about whether it is worthwhile to attack Russia with the Japanese; however, if the Russian player is adopting a total turtle strategy I say hit them from the East.
If they are truly turtling 100% in Moscow then the Germans can also race past Moscow with a handful of tanks to grab territories. This is assuming the Russians pulled back the far east troops as well.
A smart Russian player will fall back slowly and stay one territory away from the main German stack. As they fall back to Moscow, they will leave one inf behind in each territory, forcing the Germans to engage combat in each territory and effectively taking away the blitz. While the Germans may eventually be able to blitz around Moscow and head east, I don’t think that it would be possible to pull this off before turn 7 or 8 at the earliest.
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I know that there has been some debate on the board about whether it is worthwhile to attack Russia with the Japanese; however, if the Russian player is adopting a total turtle strategy I say hit them from the East.
If they are truly turtling 100% in Moscow then the Germans can also race past Moscow with a handful of tanks to grab territories. This is assuming the Russians pulled back the far east troops as well.
A smart Russian player will fall back slowly and stay one territory away from the main German stack. As they fall back to Moscow, they will leave one inf behind in each territory, forcing the Germans to engage combat in each territory and effectively taking away the blitz. While the Germans may eventually be able to blitz around Moscow and head east, I don’t think that it would be possible to pull this off before turn 7 or 8 at the earliest.
That’s exactly what I did as Russia. The problem is Italy can easily negate a lot of that by destroying the 1 inf forces, allowing German tank and Mech. Infantry to go further.
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I remember before OOB came out, Larry admitted he agonized over whether Moscow was one territory too deep. I think we know the answer to that.
I haven’t played too many Alpha2’s yet - still enjoying Anniversary. Is the Ukraine complex not helping the Germans? Is it helping the Russians or the Germans more?
But jeez, at least Germany has a major in Berlin now. That OOB setup was a joke IMO!
I can’t imagine losing with the Allies in Alpha2 or OOB, either one. Let’s see what Larry cooks up for his finalized version of 1940.
But anyway, yeah, I agree with Jeff about how a good player would never pull back the Russians any faster than necessary, and would never allow the German stacks to advance 2 territories at a time. Your opponent is shrewd to play Russia defensively, because time is what it’s all about for the Allies.
There’s talk about toning down the USA income further. I don’t know, but something needs to be done to make it harder for the Allies to win. The Alpha2 changes were a major step in the right direction, but not enough. I think all the Allies need to do even under Alpha2 rules is play it safe, and take it slow.
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I don’t think the US income should be taken down farther. I like the way they did the NOs, spreading them out instead of one big one for holding the continental US territories. Now at least the Axis has the chance to chip away at the US income. Before it was almost impossible to affect the US income.
I am starting to think that the Alpha +2 setup may favor the Axis too much. In the past few games my group has played, the Axis win most of them. I think one reason is the victory city conditions, where the axis only have to win on one side or the other. Of course, that does make for somewhat shorter games (ours average 7-9 rounds) but it doesn’t seem right to have the Japanese or the European Axis totally getting stomped while the other side gets it’s required cities and the whole game is considered an Axis victory. -
I don’t think the US income should be taken down farther. I like the way they did the NOs, spreading them out instead of one big one for holding the continental US territories. Now at least the Axis has the chance to chip away at the US income. Before it was almost impossible to affect the US income.
I am starting to think that the Alpha +2 setup may favor the Axis too much. In the past few games my group has played, the Axis win most of them. I think one reason is the victory city conditions, where the axis only have to win on one side or the other. Of course, that does make for somewhat shorter games (ours average 7-9 rounds) but it doesn’t seem right to have the Japanese or the European Axis totally getting stomped while the other side gets it’s required cities and the whole game is considered an Axis victory.From what I can tell, the game seems to favor the Allies.:)
It does make sense for the Axis to win even if they lose on one side - the goal of the Allies is to stop both Germany and Japan. If they stop one and not the other, they’ve failed.
Plus, it’s not like Japan or Germany can support each other much. If they didn’t have the split victory condition the Allies could just focus on one enemy and destroy them while letting the other one do well because the Axis still couldn’t win.
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Yeah, you got a point there. I guess if say the Japanese were stomped out, it still wouldn’t be good for the Allies to have Germany dominating Europe. Or if Germany was stomped, it would also be bad for Japan to rule the Pacific. I get that.
I still think the current setup favors the Axis. Maybe it’s just the people I’m playing with, but in the past 4 games, the Axis won 3 of them. However, in this last game, the Allies came very close and simple luck could have been a factor that tipped the balance.
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A big part of the problem is that infantry defend at a 2 and tanks attack at a 3, so it takes about 8 tanks to match 10 infantry in a fight (infantry soak up hits better than tanks). If you consider the fact that russia is probably going to have 30+ normal income for at least 3 turns (plus the the lend/lease NO for a few turns after that, depending on when Germany attacks), Russia can build 10 infantry in Moscow for probably five turns. This means that Germany has to match that with 8 tanks or 48 IPCs EVERY turn. Not to mention that Russia builds their infantry in Moscow and Germany builds its tanks in Berlin a couple turns away. Maybe on turn four or five Germany can build in Ukraine or Leningrad/Stalingrad, but even then the tanks aren’t within striking distance of Moscow.
Some of you have said to just go around Moscow and soak up territory, except Russia can block you with one infantry every step of the way. Even if Italy takes out that one infantry, only tanks and mech can blitz, so Germany will have left all the original infantry and art. behind. A stack of tanks with only a handful of mech for fodder is going to get ripped to shreds. And where is Italy getting the units to send to the eastern front? They start out broke and have to spend all their money in the med just to get any NOs. Furthermore, even if Germany can grab all this territory, Britain and the USA are going to be landing a dozen units or so every turn in Europe past turn five or six. Most of Germany’s newly gained money is going to be spent fending off the allies in Europe.
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Welcome to the boards, Mark, and good post.
I agree, the quandary Germany is in, is that she doesn’t have much time to take Moscow, and Moscow is very deep and easy to defend. Russia has a lot of money. Actually Russia starts with 37 or 38, and will collect this again once or twice at least.
If my life depended on a single game of Global 1940 with no bid and Alpha2 setup, I would absolutely take the Allies without a moment’s hesitation. It will be interesting to see what Larry comes up with, for a hopefully final product, hopefully before Europe 1940 is a year old! Alpha 2 took big steps in the right direction, but more of Larry and friends’ brilliant tweaks are needed.
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Some of you have said to just go around Moscow and soak up territory, except Russia can block you with one infantry every step of the way. Even if Italy takes out that one infantry, only tanks and mech can blitz, so Germany will have left all the original infantry and art. behind. A stack of tanks with only a handful of mech for fodder is going to get ripped to shreds. And where is Italy getting the units to send to the eastern front? They start out broke and have to spend all their money in the med just to get any NOs. Furthermore, even if Germany can grab all this territory, Britain and the USA are going to be landing a dozen units or so every turn in Europe past turn five or six. Most of Germany’s newly gained money is going to be spent fending off the allies in Europe.
If the Allied can throw “dozen” of units into Europe by round 5-6 the Axis would have lost without a turtling Moscow as well because that would mean Japan is contained or destroyed and the board is effectively lost for Axis.
Anyways:Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.
Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.
The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.
Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)
Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.Now - I’m not saying it is easy to take out a turtleling Moscow. It’s not easy taking any turtleling field due to the speed the Axis must put up to counter the Allied money maker aka USA, but even the Allies can’t be everywhere on the board either.
The reasoning behind “ignoring” Moscow and taking other land is that with a smaller economy you can whittle away at that stack of infantry faster than they can rebuild it.
So instead of spending 48 IPCs every turn, spend 36 and throw 6 tanks into Moscow every turn while using the remainder IPC keeping the Allies out of Western Europe.Nobody said it was easy to remove a stack of 50+ defending infantry. But the issue isn’t that a stack of 50+ infantry can be made and is difficult to take with their 2 defence value. The infantry 2 defence is not a problem and the 3 attack of tanks neither IMO.
It is that time is of so much a factor due to the USA’s economy and ability to focus - that strategy and tactics on both sides of the board is much more limited as a result in the game. -
The Russian turtling strategy is tough… while I think that it can eventually be overcome in a long game, it basically takes a quick European victory off the table for the Axis.
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“Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.”
Scramble your fighters west of London when Germany attacks; Save the transport/maybe the destroyer. Make sure to save your fighters. Move whatever forces you have left to Canada. Build your ships in Canada for a few turns. Move up to the SZ west of London and build more ships there. Use your fighters as a deterrent because they can scramble. Have a few US warships join this squadron at the same time they move to off the coast of London. A threatened Sealion complicates this, but the infantry that will be built to defend London can be used for amphibious assaults later on. Paired with the three/four fighters that were saved, its a pretty powerful landing force.“Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.”
If they ignore Egypt/clearing the med. If they spend the time and money going into Egypt, it’s going to be fairly late in the game by the time they get any sizable force through the Middle East and into Russia.“The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.”
With all of America’s money and two rounds of building before war, surely America can spare two/three transports a turn and a warship or two (since they already have a warship in the Atlantic).“Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)”
Fortify Leningrad from an attack from the sea. When Germany attacks by land just move all those units back to Moscow via Archangel. If Germany attacks G2 make sure they can’t hit you by sea. If they hit you over land on G2 all they have is their starting units and 5 newly built tanks. As long as you keep Leningrad fortified, Germany can’t hit you G2 with any real force.“Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.”
They have 18 infantry to contend with. They can take a handful of territories in the far east, but doing so gives Russia a 12 IPC bonus. It will take 2 turns of income before it pays off. If Japan only takes a handful of Russian territories, it won’t make a difference until later in the game. Additionally, Japan needs land units to go into China. So any units that are used to take and hold Russian territory aren’t being used to fight the Chinese. If Japan tries to march through Russia, Russia can move one step back every turn. This will lose money for Russia, but Japan will have tied down a large number of forces allowing the Pacific Allies a chance to gain momentum. -
“Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.”
Scramble your fighters west of London when Germany attacks; Save the transport/maybe the destroyer. Make sure to save your fighters. Move whatever forces you have left to Canada. Build your ships in Canada for a few turns. Move up to the SZ west of London and build more ships there. Use your fighters as a deterrent because they can scramble. Have a few US warships join this squadron at the same time they move to off the coast of London. A threatened Sealion complicates this, but the infantry that will be built to defend London can be used for amphibious assaults later on. Paired with the three/four fighters that were saved, its a pretty powerful landing force.You can still do sealion - it happens in some games.
“Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.”
If they ignore Egypt/clearing the med. If they spend the time and money going into Egypt, it’s going to be fairly late in the game by the time they get any sizable force through the Middle East and into Russia.You do not need a sizeable force to move through Syria, take Iraq and throw up a small IC, and it doesn’t need to take many troops away from Egypt/Africa. Italy isn’t going to take Moscow, but they can supply units to help and they can help removing USSR income.
“The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.”
With all of America’s money and two rounds of building before war, surely America can spare two/three transports a turn and a warship or two (since they already have a warship in the Atlantic).And that’s 30 plus IPC of units per turn not used to contain Japan, giving them a larger chance to mess around.
The US splitting focus gives the Axis a better chance.“Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)”
Fortify Leningrad from an attack from the sea. When Germany attacks by land just move all those units back to Moscow via Archangel. If Germany attacks G2 make sure they can’t hit you by sea. If they hit you over land on G2 all they have is their starting units and 5 newly built tanks. As long as you keep Leningrad fortified, Germany can’t hit you G2 with any real force.And that’s unit not used to reinforce Moscow.
Hence the “huge stack” problem got smaller.“Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.”
They have 18 infantry to contend with. They can take a handful of territories in the far east, but doing so gives Russia a 12 IPC bonus. It will take 2 turns of income before it pays off. If Japan only takes a handful of Russian territories, it won’t make a difference until later in the game. Additionally, Japan needs land units to go into China. So any units that are used to take and hold Russian territory aren’t being used to fight the Chinese. If Japan tries to march through Russia, Russia can move one step back every turn. This will lose money for Russia, but Japan will have tied down a large number of forces allowing the Pacific Allies a chance to gain momentum.And with less American focus, that’s free Japanese units used to tie up Russian troops not used to fortify Moscow.
Now - we all (mostly) know that this game is difficult for the Axis, and it is easy to sit here to think up “Oh, Then the allies do X and the Axis need to do Y”, which really isn’t the point.
However - fact of the matter is that this game will not be improved by making it faster. And thinking a “huge USSR infantry stack” is the problem or “Moscow is too far away” is a problem, is ignoring the real problem, because it is only a symptom.
It is a symptom of the fact that the Axis have to move fast. They’re forced to. They have no choice and no other strategy. Either take London fast or take Moscow fast or you’ve lost Europe.
The turtle strategy is - if time wasn’t an issue - a really bad strategy, because it’s purely defensive. So the reason why it is so effective is that it can delay Germany long enough that the USA can kill of Japan and focus fully on Europe afterwards. And that’s the problem. That the US economy is so large it can focus fully on one theatre of conflict, ignoring the other, because time is on it’s side.
If Moscow falls faster, then the game will be shorter and we’ll have even less strategic choices when playing Axis and most all games will be similar. -
Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
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Yes, the Axis have to move fast if their goal is to take down Russia. The problem is that they aren’t capable of moving fast. Leningrad can be fortified to prevent a naval G2 attack and a land G2 attack is going to be extremely difficult. On turn 3 Russia can just move their forces out. That’s part of the issue; If Russia always keeps its forces one move away from Germany with an infantry in between, they can amass a huge force. Germany is stuck moving one space at a time. Even if you send Japan and Italy against Russia they can’t move very quickly. Italy can’t get to Iraq until I2, build an IC until I3, build units until I4, and if Britain liberated the persian extra units and merged them with just a few Russian units in North Persia, Italy might not be able to attack Russia until late game. The same issue occurs with Japan, even if Japan invades Russia and tries to take up as much money as possible, the Russian stack can move one space away all game long. Sure, Russia loses some money, but Japan is going to struggle to effectively fight anyone else.
Bottom line, I’ve played multiple games as the Soviet Union where I didn’t let anyone attack my units except an infantry I left as a road block. Even when Japan invades Russia turn one/two and tries to keep pushing, it still didn’t make much difference because they can only take a territory a turn. So when Germany finally reaches Moscow, almost every single unit I’ve built as Russia is there defending my capital. Sure, if time weren’t a factor, it’s a bad strategy, but I know that the Allies are going to be landing in force by turn 5 or so, so the Axis is not able to deal with the Allied pressure and overcome a huge Moscow stack.
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Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
Can’t the Italians strike the Battleship with fighters?
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Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
Can’t the Italians strike the Battleship with fighters?
Germany could do it more easily. And Germany could destroy the battleship and do an amphibious landing in the same turn, I think.
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