How and Why America became great

[Funcioneta]

@Cmdr:

With children better fed, living in healthier environments, around a person who (ostensibly) loves and cares for them, in a home reasonably priced; it seems logical that American’s “education” level would improve and thus we may experience a “Pax Romana” return to a society which made us great.

Not a Pax Romana, please, that was be able because of roman legions and lead to Middle Ages  :lol:

But I think I get the idea. Family first, then money and properties. Pretty logical  :-)

[Jennifer]

:)

Sorry, Func.  I just used Pax Romana because it seems to be a term that is similar to “Utopia”.  It is, in my opinion, a way to represent a return to family, republic, strong national identity, strength compared to foreign nations, safety and security as well as high qualities of life.

It was not to mean we should go around invading all our neighbors and force civilization on them.  (Besides, who would want too!  They need to bathe first! wink  That’s a joke btw!)

[italiansarecoming]

thanks for agreeing with my point i am happy that the canadians were not part of it since are economy is fragile and will be harder to increase then the americans!

[Funcioneta]

@Cmdr:

:)

Sorry, Func.  I just used Pax Romana because it seems to be a term that is similar to “Utopia”.  It is, in my opinion, a way to represent a return to family, republic, strong national identity, strength compared to foreign nations, safety and security as well as high qualities of life.

Ah … the republic … I’d wish we the spanish could also choose our chief of state as you can in USA. But thinking in Spanish politicians, left or right, probably I’d vote Juan Carlos of Bourbon anyway as president of republic. Oh, life is a paradox  :-D

And I would not try invade Canada. You know, in Simpsons series say canadians have the bomb  :-D  :lol:

[Smacktard]

I think it should be pointed out that for the last 90 years or so, while America emerged as a superpower (and has retained that status for decades), we’ve had progressive income taxation. Some might even call it… wealth redistribution :-o

[Jennifer]

Please refrain from using political arguments.  Progressive/Regressive taxation is a political term used to get a certain political party elected in the 1930s and 1940s. And your comment about “wealth redistribution” is a direct quote from one of the political candidates trying to get elected this year.

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As to the meaning of your point, in a general NON-political way:  Taxes did NOT make this nation great.  This nation was formed to get rid of taxes, many movements were based on the abolition of taxes, and taxes were generally thought of as a necessary evil during times of great need of the nation like the Spanish American War, the Mexican American War, the French and Indian War, the Civil War, etc.

What made this nation great was not plundering the rich and hoarding by the government.  It was the innovation of the clever-minded and imaginative people with investments from the rich.  For instance, one could look only at the history of Chicago.  If it were not for the incredibly wealthy in New York flooding Chicago with capital, then Saint Louis really would have been the gateway to the west, Iowa would have MEGA Metropolis’s and Peoria would be the largest city in Illinois.  But since the wealthy in New York funded inventors like the ones inventing the grain elevator, the mail order catalog, and others as well as the ingenuity of Chicago to orchestrate with the rails to use geography to their advantage (which also could only be done by the ultra wealthy in New York giving loans to land prospectors to buy the land Chicago was built on) and on merchants working together to make, as Cronon says “…the greatest general store the world had ever seen…” referring to downtown Chicago.

Then Chicago inventors came up with the Chicago Board of Exchange, which allowed the poor, for the first time ever, to invest in the markets to get themselves un-poor.

Then, when Chicago burned down, they rebuilt, but they had the ingenuity and presence of mind to think of building it in uniform square blocks with roads traveling north-sout, east-west (and a few divergent streets) to make Chicago one of the most efficient cities on the planet at that time.  And, because they had the capitol during their founding from wealthy investors, they were able to grow the economy enough that the Chicago Fire did not obliterate Chicago from the annuls of history, but they could defy fate and restore the glittering city on the hill to its rightful place.

Was it all cream and cake for Chicago?  No.  No city back then was cream and cake for every citizen.  Back then citizens worked hard, they played hard, they prayed hard. (Labore, Ludere, Orare) They understood that education was the key to success, not hand outs from parent/organization.  The boss was not the “enemy” he was the necessary evil keeping the business going so they could have a job and bring food home.

Taxes?  Taxes have done nothing but stifle this nation and crush it.  What made this country great was the revulsion and repression of taxes so that the successful could thrive and in turn help their fellow man so they too could survive.  Our best years were in the early/mid 1800s, maybe up to the very early 1900s.  I’m not talking about the political reality of those times, I am referring to the attitudes and expectations of the people at that time, at all strata of civilization.

[Imperious Leader]

Smacktard: lets not bait others into political arguments.

[Jermofoot]

@Cmdr:

This nation was formed to get rid of taxes, many movements were based on the abolition of taxes, and taxes were generally thought of as a necessary evil during times of great need of the nation like the Spanish American War, the Mexican American War, the French and Indian War, the Civil War, etc.

This nation was formed to get rid of taxes, many movements were based on the abolition of taxes, and taxes were generally thought of as a necessary evil during times of great need of the nation like the Spanish American War, the Mexican American War, the French and Indian War, the Civil War, etc. taxation without representation.

Fixed that for you.  The authority for the federal government to levy taxes exists in the US Constitution.

[Jennifer]

You are quite correct in your literal interpretation of the US Constitution.  But let us remember that the US Constitution was not imposed before, during or immediately after the American Revolution but at least a decade later.

Anyway, I believe almost unilaterally most, if not all, of the authors of our freedom, from the layman with his rifle hiding in a muddy puddle along the road to shoot at red coats, all the way up to the lofty dignitaries like Thomas Jefferson would state, very emphatically, that taxation is a method to raise money in times of very dire need, not an existence that should be experienced on a daily basis as the “norm.”

The reason I feel comfortable saying this is because of how loathe all the important men in American history have been to implement any form of tax throughout our early history.  This is not to make an argument that taxes are good or bad, but rather an argument to state that at the time this nation was building the foundation of itself that made us great, taxes were viewed upon with great distaste and, at times, hostile resistance.

So it seems plainly obvious that taxes, levied on any portion or the whole of the people, were not the cause of us becoming a great nation, but rather, despite the very short periods of time taxes were levied on the people, we grew to greatness anyway.

So what did make us great?  I think it pretty simple to see:

1.  We relied on our own resources
2.  We instilled in our children a strong work ethic from early in their lives
3.  We rewarded success with greater power and influence while punishing failure with less power and influence
4.  Those that chose to be educated were educated stringently in skills vital to the success of this nation (mathematics, science, literature, history, law and medicine {I know medicine is a science, but usually we discuss it as its own field}). 
5.  Educators and those who were educated were held in great respect and regard.
6.  Those elected to guide the nation did so at their own expense most of the time. (Salary was provided but it was never really enough to live on, rather an allowance to ease the costs of doing their jobs.  President Adams only earned $5,000 a year for instance, which forced him to work his farm throughout his presidency.)
7.  Immigrants were brought in, but only those with strong work ethics survived in this nation. (Read Sinclair who attempts to portray business owners as evil and immigrants as virtuous, never-the-less he ends up showing how it was the family’s work ethic that earned them their successes, not gifts.

In other words, friends, I believe what made us great is two fold:

1)  Independence from foreign nations (Food, Manufacturing, Energy, etc)
2)  Independence from meddling agencies (Unions, governments, churches, etc)

[Smacktard]

@Cmdr:

You are quite correct in your literal interpretation of the US Constitution.  But let us remember that the US Constitution was not imposed before, during or immediately after the American Revolution but at least a decade later.

Anyway, I believe almost unilaterally most, if not all, of the authors of our freedom, from the layman with his rifle hiding in a muddy puddle along the road to shoot at red coats, all the way up to the lofty dignitaries like Thomas Jefferson would state, very emphatically, that taxation is a method to raise money in times of very dire need, not an existence that should be experienced on a daily basis as the “norm.”

We also weren’t trusted to vote for president back then. Times change. If you want to spend $12 billion a month on war, you gotta pay for it. Ditto for Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, the interstate highway system, trips to the moon, national parks, etc.

As I said, we’ve had a progressive income tax in place for over 90 years (and no, “progressive income tax” is not political- the two major parties in this country are, and have  been, perfectly content to keep it in place), and it certainly hasn’t stood in the way of our progression to superpower.

Correction: progressive income taxation started during the Civil War:

“During the Civil War, a person earning from $600 to $10,000 per year paid tax at the rate of 3%. Those with incomes of more than $10,000 paid taxes at a higher rate.”

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html

So it’s been in place for the last 145 years.

The reason I feel comfortable saying this is because of how loathe all the important men in American history have been to implement any form of tax throughout our early history.  This is not to make an argument that taxes are good or bad, but rather an argument to state that at the time this nation was building the foundation of itself that made us great, taxes were viewed upon with great distaste and, at times, hostile resistance.

So were foreign entanglements. Is there a single successful industriliazed democratic nation without an income tax? I honestly don’t know. I know the norm is income taxation.

So it seems plainly obvious that taxes, levied on any portion or the whole of the people, were not the cause of us becoming a great nation, but rather, despite the very short periods of time taxes were levied on the people, we grew to greatness anyway.

Uh huh. So 140 years is a “very short period of time”? Riiight.  :roll:

[Imperious Leader]

too political-too contentious. Closed for business. So sorry. :mrgreen: