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Unit Lineup speculation/wish list



  • Units would be:
    (Keep in mind there is only 1 round of combat per turn)

    Infantry 1/2/1 3 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Trench Warfare: Infantry may not retreat from a battle that was already ongoing.

    Artillery 2/2/1 4 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Fire Support: Supports Infantry at a 1:1 basis, boosting their attack to ‘2’

    Heavy Artillery 1/0/1 5 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Long Range: Heavy Artillery may fire into an adjacent territory during combat

    Cavalry 2/1/2 6 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Withdrawal: Cavalry units may remove themselves from combat after all dice have been rolled and retreat to a friendly territory

    Armor 3/2/1 8 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Land Battleship: Armored units require two hits to destroy. (tilt on its side to represent damage)

    Aircraft 2/3/3 10 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Dog Fight: If enemy air units are present, roll all air units as a separate combat
    • Air Reconnaissance: For each air unit you have in combat, raise the attack power of an adjacent strategic artillery unit to ‘3’

    Submarine 2/1/1 6 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Submersible: After any combat cycle you may move your sub one space if you wish.

    Transport 0/0/2 7 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Transport: May transport one infantry and one other land unit
    • Amphibious Invasion: Transported units may disembark into combat, disembarking units attack at ‘1’ regardless of type or special rules
    • Last Casualty: When attacked, transports must be taken as casualties last

    Cruiser 3/3/2 12 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Coastal Bombardment: May fire if an amphibious invasion is taking place

    Battleship 4/4/2 20 IPCs
    Special Rules

    • Coastal Bombardment: May fire if an amphibious invasion is taking place
    • Dreadnought: Battleships require two hits to destroy

  • Customizer

    Wow! Good ideas. It’s like you are writing the rulebook yourself. A few questions:
    1 - No Destroyers?
    2 - Why do subs only move 1?
    3 - Is the heavy long range artillery the same as strategic artillery?
    3a - I assume the heavy artillery only hits on a 1 because of the extreme range, correct?



  • 1. Larry said there will be no destroyers. Even though I added other units, so I guess a 2/2/2 destroyer is fine.

    2. Subs only move 1 because WWI subs were very slow. But remember, after a combat a sub gets a free move, so they will be moving all the time.

    3. Heavy and strategic arty are the same but remember, air observers bump them up to ‘3’.


  • Customizer

    My take, imported from the post on LH:

    Very much like most of what I’ve read so far, but my comments below are based on reading through just the above posts. Little disappointed no Japan (which had just defeated Russia), but I can understand why. The one round of combat per turn makes perfect sense. Also glad to see no Canada/India/Anzac nonesense. As long as colonies are sensibly limited in production, each empire should be integrated militarily.

    My ten cents then:

    1. Rail movement (most important of course).

    I believe this would be the perfect game to introduce rail movement (that is, unlimited movement for land units along friendly tts during the non-combat phase).
    Two main reasons:

    This war, more than even WWII, was driven by railway timetables. Its said the Kaizer tried to stop the war, but was told he couldn’t because the timetables wouldn’t allow it.
    Since this will be a relatively static game, the system would not be so radical a change as in the WWII versions. Gently does it, once established people will wonder why A&A didn’t always have rail movement.
    RM would be of particular benefit to the Central Powers, allowing them to shift forces from front to front as required.

    Owing to the scarcity of rail lines in some regions at this period, it may be advantageous to have rails printed on the map where they are available. Personally, I’d prefer this to “stippled” terrain effects, especially if there are no actually game effects of terrain.

    Finally, armoured trains would be the coolest A&A pieces ever:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_t … orld_War_I

    2. Italy

    I assume Italy join the Allies after a couple of turns. But wait on here, in 1914 it was by no means certain that Italy would not join the CPs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_in_WWI

    I would suggest using Italy as a tilting mechanism, forcing the pace of the early game. I seem to remember that Diplomacy has an official variant whereby after X number of turns you toss a coin to decide which side the country joins.

    So: after X number of turns, if the CPs have achieved Y, Italy joins them. If they have not attained Y, Italy joins the Allies. Or, if you have 8 players, the Italy player can decide who to join. See also my bid for Italy suggestion posted elsewhere.
    It might make sense for Italy to have “Allied” unit sculpts to balance 4 vs 4.

    3. Artillery

    I very much support the suggestion that artillery should not be able to move during the combat phase. It fires an opening barrage, enemy artillery replies, and then the battle proper is fought normally. Art. on the attacking side are only allowed as casualties from the enemy art reply. They cannot move into the captured tt.

    OR, divide into “field” and “heavy/rail” units.

    4. Infantry.

    I’m intrigued to find out if the sculpts will feature early or late war equipment. One possibility (I know this won’t be included initially) is to have “basic” and “elite/veteran” infantry, with the latter represented by steel helmets, body armor, gasmasks etc.
    I would also like infantry “trained” at specific depots rather than “built” in factories. Of course you still have to pay for the training. Something else probably beyond the scope of this production would be each unit keyed to a nationality within its respective empire, with political implications. For example ethnic “German” units in the Austrian army would be more reliable than ethnic Czechs raised in Prague. Perhaps each depot should be limited to a set number of recruits per game, (based broadly on its population), to reflect finite manpower. Also, players should have to recruit in each depot they hold, rather than for example France recruiting all infantry units in Paris.

    5. Plastic colours.

    My personal preferences:

    G - Black
    A - White
    T - Yellow/Burnt Orange?
    I - Grey
    B - Tan
    F - Blue
    U - Green
    R - Brown

    PSR has these suggestions:

    http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Sho … aspx?id=29

    However I’m intending to experiment with dying my units with RIT, so I can have whatever colours I like.

    6. Navy

    Are naval battles fought in the same way as on land, with only one round of combat? Otherwise, aircraft should certainly only participate in the first round.

    Another of my old arguments is for coaling stations. That is, a naval unit must refuel in a friendly port each and every turn. In can start and/or end the turn at sea, but must refuel at some point.
    Battleships are clearly more powerful with no carriers in the game, so I assume they’ll have the 2 hit points, perhaps even 3 (big war ships were very difficult to sink). Should take 2 (or even 3) turns to build. I might even think about a separate naval battle-board, with tactical movements such as “crossing the T”, but again this might be better suited to a stand alone game.

    I’m concerned about the apparent lack of CP convoy zones. It was, after all, a blockade that forced the CP surrender; the German army was not defeated in the field. What incentive will there be for the CP to build a surface fleet rather than just stack inf/art for the drives to Moscow and Paris? (I’m assuming they won’t have to take London or Washington to win).

    Destroyers should have a mine-sweeping role, but it looks like this is something else missing.

    7. Factories.

    Can’t let this go without pulling for my preference for not allowing use of captured factories. Exception: in reference to 4. above, allow use of captured infantry depots, where the nationality is appropriate, e.g Russia can recruit Polish units in captured Cracow/Galicia.
    And, obviously, money should be collected at the start of a player’s turn.

    Turkey had no heavy industry to speak of, I certainly don’t like the idea of them building aircraft in Ankara. Depends on the turn order - if it’s “All CP play, then all Allies play” no problem - planes built in Berlin/Vienna can be just flown down there. Otherwise, there’d need to be a conversion of A/G units to T.

    8. Techs.

    Though never a big fan of techs, surely tanks should not be available at the beginning. Moreover, if tanks are in the game, bombers should be too.

    Regarding tanks: they actually did breakthrough when used in numbers, effectively they did have “blitzing” ability. They sometimes ended up deep into enemy tt, but without infantry support were sitting ducks. If we assume that they have the same normal movement as other land units (1, or unlimited travel by rail in NCM), allow tanks to “breakthrough”, i.e. if an attack completely eliminates the enemy, surviving attacking tanks can move 1 further land tt (probably only into undefended areas). This actually reflects my preference for BT over BK in WWII A&A, but seems even more appropriate here. Presumably tanks will be 3-1 in combat.

    9. Cavalry

    I get the point about cavalry seeming to be redundant in the war. But why not let the game reflect this organically?

    Cavalry cost more than infantry.
    Have the breakthrough ability described above for tanks.
    Whereas infantry will presumably be 1-2, cavalry is the reverse (or even 1-1?).

    The effect should be that, on the western front, cavalry does indeed become redundant due to the static warfare; their extra movement is useless, they are less effective in defence, take up more transport room than infantry, and are more expensive (horse fodder). But, on the other fronts, cavalry movement can still be an asset, particularly to nations not yet equipped with armour.

    Mmmm, already thinking about pressing RISK cavalry units into service…

    10. Control markers

    The usual roundels? Problem is, all the Allied powers used the same 3 ring roundels, with different colours.

    A radical suggestion: there is only one Allied control marker design! The Allies are the good guys, they don’t conquer tt, they liberate it. Therefore, when the Allies capture a CP occupied area, they merely remove the CP control marker. If it started as a neutral, they place a joint Allied marker to show that the liberated tt is now free, but friendly to Allied units. They cannot gain IPCs from the tt, but they can recruit infantry there if there is a depot. Occupied CP tt is treated in the same way, except for the recruitment, which must be of an “oppressed minority” nationality.
    The idea here is to balance the industrial inferiority of the CPs.
    The CPs each have their own control markers; they can annex and exploit occupied tt in a way the Allies cannot.

    As a side issue, does each player still play a turn one after the other, with the possibility of the Allies having 5 turns versus CPs 3?

    My preference for WWII A&A is four player, with USSR & Japan as separate powers, taking separate turns from the Western Allies and the Euro Axis. However, with no Japan/Pacific, ILs “All Axis/CP plays; then all Allies play” seems to make a lot of sense here.

    Interested to see how the Russian revolution is handled: do the CP get control of the Bolshevik forces?


  • Customizer

    A map.

    Belgium has a factory, which is just about acceptable. Serbia? Turkey? No.

    Russia needs more areas.

    GreatWAr.PNG



  • Map needs more Russian territories, as well as Iraq and some of Saudi Arabia, for the Ottomans to struggle with. Seems like on that map they would have very little to do but bash their face against Russia.

    As for Roundels, Diplomacy handles it nicely by using flag tokens instead of aircraft roundels.
    –-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For Italy, I would be fine with something as simple as rolling a die and consulting a chart.

    Roll a die: If the number is equal to or less than the current turn number apply the following (any other result, Italy rolls again next turn)
    Rolled 1 on turn 1 - Italy joins the central powers if they pay 5 IPCs to Italy
    2 or less on turn 2 - Italy joins the central powers if they pay 10 IPCs to Italy
    3 or less on turn 3 - Italy joins the central powers if they pay 15 IPCs to Italy OTHERWISE Italy Joins the Allies
    4 or less on turn 4 - Italy stays neutral if the central powers pay 20 IPCs to Italy OTHERWISE Italy Joins the Allies
    5 or less on turn 5 - Italy stays neutral if the central powers pay 20 IPCs to Italy OTHERWISE Italy Joins the Allies
    6 or less on turn 6 - Italy joins the Allies

    I am VERY into Italy’s entry being RANDOM and FINANCIALLY MOTIVATED



  • Everyone is talking about Italy having the ability to change sides. I get the fact that they had a pact w/Central powers, and wiggled out of it to join the allies. However it would be very difficult to balance the game if they had the ability to flip flop and fully join the CP.

    Even with Oz’s pay off scale it would throw balance off IMO. Yea the Central Powers pay on certain rolls, but when Italy joins the CP they just get a stronger Italy utilizing the bribe IPCs (there really isn’t a trade off). Even with a roll of 5 or 6 for 20 IPCs (the cost of a battleship) you can keep a power neutral and out of the game? Even if Italy is a very minor power they would have to start out with at least 100 IPCs worth of units.

    Could have a way to bribe Italy into delaying their DOW? Kinda how in G40 Japan can get the 10 IPC NO if they forgo attacking FIC.

    Maybe look at as a trade off for Italy joining the CP, it speeds up the US entering the war? IDK if it make sense historically or not, but it would keep things balanced.



  • From a standpoint of historical accuracy, the most important thing this game should avoid is having set in stone joining/surrendering dates.

    It already upsets me that the US joins automatically, on turn 4 of all turns! Thats like January 1916 (assuming turns are ~4 months each)
    It will probably be a similar rule for the Russians quitting, and the Italians joining.

    These dates should all fluctuate.
    For instance something like this chart.

    From turn 4 onward, roll a die for each of the following powers: USA, Russia, Italy; and consult the following chart.
    Russia
    1-2: Continues Fighting
    3-4: No Combat Moves allowed this turn and remove D6 units from the board representing losses to the Bolshevists
    5-6: Surrenders, becoming a neutral power. Productions stops.

    USA
    1-3: Remains Neutral
    4-6: Declares war on Central Powers

    Italy
    1: Joins Central Powers
    2-4: Remains Neutral
    5-6: Joins Allied powers.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Italy went to war with Austro-Hungary initially ( well May 1915) and latter fought against all the central powers. Besides, how can you balance a game when a major nation could join either side?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    For variable entry, you might consider the roll to join central or remain neutral would be for the first 1-3 turns:

    Roll once per turn, can build normally:
    1-4 no effect
    5 joins entente one turn early ( turn 2)
    6 joins entente one turn latter (turn 4)

    Normally it will join on turn 3.



  • No matter how it is done, it is important to not be set in stone.

    Most of the big political shifts of the war didn’t come on schedule. It wasn’t like Italy had a deadline to decide when to join or not, or the Russians made a proclamation that they were going to lay down their guns at exactly 4:00 PM.

    The unexpected is important.
    Otherwise, if Germany knows when Russia is going to bow out, it will shift to the western front, as if it had some sort of future-predicting machine.

    future.jpg


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Special Events:
    Russian Revolution:
    Russian Revolution can begin on turn 10.  At the beginning of turn 10 a roll is made to see if Russia goes into a civil war.  On a D6 roll of 1 the country spirals into revolution.  This roll is modified as follows:

    -2 to the roll if an allied capital is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
    -2 to the roll if Petrograd is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
    -1 to the roll if Moscow is held by the Central Powers (-1/2 if contested)
    -1/2 to roll (rounded down) per additional Russian or controlled allied territory that is held (-0 if contested)
    +1/2 (rounded down) to the roll per enemy territory held by the Russians or its controlled allies (+0 if contested)
    +2 to roll if an enemy capital is held by the Allies (+1 if contested)
    The roll is made each and every turn afterwards.  If Russia goes into a revolution she will surrender and all her remaining forces (within Russia) are removed from the game.  All other units outside of Russia, including any controlled territories, are considered to belong to the Russian-controlled Allies.  Furthermore, Serbia, Romania, and Montenegro will remain controlled by the Russian player.  However, Serbia will continue to follow the special rules for the fall of Serbia.

    Effect: Germany gains economic and total control of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belorussia, Kiev, Ukraine and Crimea. German units in any other Russian areas must retreat and the German player gains no benefit from other Russian areas. All Russian units are removed from play.



  • How about the Russian Revolution happening as Russia begins to lose battles and territory. The more territories Russia loses the greater the chance they bow out. Use 2 dice. Lose 1 territory 2  with 2 6 sided die. Lose 4 goes up to 5. Lose 6 9 and under. Part of the reason they had the revolution was because the war was going so badly for them. Granted it wasn’t the only one but the war helped push it into motion. What do you guys think of that.



  • @Flashman:

    However I’m intending to experiment with dying my units with RIT, so I can have whatever colours I like.

    This idea is interesting. Rit Dye says polyethylene and polycarbonate plastics won’t dye, but nylon-based plastics can. I had assumed plastic miniatures were polyethylene, but am I wrong?



  • IL, turn 10 seems a little late don’t you think?


  • Customizer

    The figure dying technique is described on the Strelets forum:

    http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=0

    Scroll down to “How to change plastic colour without paint”.

    Haven’t tried it yet, but definitely sounds worth a go.

    Revolutions:

    There was nearly a revolution in Germany (in some states there was) near the end and after the war. There were strikes and mutinies in many other countries.

    Perhaps there should be a “revolution tracking chart” for every major country; every big defeat, loss of home territory, or loss of convoy zone moves a country up one rung towards the breakdown of order. Every year of the war that passes also moves the target nearer, reflecting general discontent with the war, and giving a natural lifespan for the game beyond which people simply wouldn’t go on fighting. In the end, it was the countries who kept armies in the field the longest who won, rather than gaining a military victory.

    Another factor here is the idea of national minorities within existing empires. That is, some provinces starting as “home” tts actually contain a majority population not of the parent nationality, who aspire to independence. For example Russia, Germany and Austria all have provinces with Polish majorities, more interested in Polish independence than who wins the war.

    BTW, money paid to bribe Italy is payed to the bank, not to Italy! It represents territory promised to Italy after the war by the CP (Tunisia) & the Allies (Trent, Trieste, Dalmatia, Albania.)


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Turns:
    Each game turn constitutes four months (except the first) of real time outlined as follows:

    1. August 1st - December 1914 9. May - August 1917
    2. January - April 1915 10. September - December 1917
    3. May - August 1915 11. January - April 1918
    4. September - December 1915        12. May - August 1918
    5. January - April 1916        13. September - December 1918
    6. May - August 1916 14. January - April 1919 (extended game)
    7. September - December 1916        15. May - August 1919
    8. January - April 1917

    8 November 1917 is when the Revolution took hold, so turn 10.


  • Customizer

    There was a February revolution as well, but the new government continued the war.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution

    Perhaps somehow the invasion of Russia by the Western Powers in 1918 can be reflected:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

    CPs get control of Red Russians, Allies keep control of White Russians? In effect, the Allies liberate Russian tts for the old Imperial regime. How to determine Reds from Whites?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    “reds and whites” is another game. This is Axis and Allies, not World in Flames WW1.



  • @Flashman:

    The figure dying technique is described on the Strelets forum:

    http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=0

    Scroll down to “How to change plastic colour without paint”.

    Haven’t tried it yet, but definitely sounds worth a go.

    Thanks! Gonna experiment first with my FMG Italians. If that doesn’t work, I’ll try a few light-colored HBG units.


  • Customizer

    ““reds and whites” is another game. This is Axis and Allies, not World in Flames WW1.”

    But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

    Attached some alternative schedules.

    USA entering on turn 4 only works if we assume 1 round = 1 year.

    GreatWarC.xls


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

    And they did that AFTER WW1 during the period of 1918-23, fighting for the whites…so different war, different game. The Government and that fought against the Central powers and participated in WW1 was overthrown and once peace was made they are out of the war. Their is no part of WW1 that included battles relating to the civil war and the situation of the communists and other factions. They had their own struggle and it was not even remotely related to the Great War. So their is no need or reality of tying the two separate events as part of the Great War.

    Besides the game is already made and the game would not benefit from any Red/White star skirmishes. The “wish list” in any event would benefit from rules and concepts dealing with the Great War, and not the Russian Revolution.

    Why not have one continuous war from 1870-1945 tying all the various connected struggles? Oh heck throw in the American Civil War too.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    German Mutiny:
    On turn 13 the German Navy mutinies.  The mutiny only affects German naval units.  When an attack or move is made, roll a D6; on a 1-4 the attack/move may not proceed.  German forces defend as normal.



  • Larry has already said what units will be in the game and it will be about as complex as '42.2, USA joins on turn 4 and there will be no techs



  • I would think that the Russian revolution is triggered by an event, rather then a certain turn.

    Could be Russian production being cut down to a certain level. That would keep the Germans, Austrians/Hungarians pressing hard to the east so they might be able to shut down that front. If they take their foot off the throttle, they have to keep fighting the Russians. This would also keep the Ottomans engaged.

    Maybe they are given a goal like defeating the Ottomans (conquering Constantinople/Istanbul) by say turn 6-7, and holding the line in Eastern Europe to avoid the revolution leading to its exit.

    Could be the loss of original victory cities (or the capital of St Petersburg) causes the Revolution. Russia could start with St Petersburg, Moscow and 2 other orig VC. If they fall below 2 VC’s (St Petersburg +1) the Revolution takes them out of the game. If they capture a victory city (Constantinople), before they lose one of their own they continue the fight, as long as the still hold their capital.


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