Unit Lineup speculation/wish list

[WILD BILL]

Everyone is talking about Italy having the ability to change sides. I get the fact that they had a pact w/Central powers, and wiggled out of it to join the allies. However it would be very difficult to balance the game if they had the ability to flip flop and fully join the CP.

Even with Oz’s pay off scale it would throw balance off IMO. Yea the Central Powers pay on certain rolls, but when Italy joins the CP they just get a stronger Italy utilizing the bribe IPCs (there really isn’t a trade off). Even with a roll of 5 or 6 for 20 IPCs (the cost of a battleship) you can keep a power neutral and out of the game? Even if Italy is a very minor power they would have to start out with at least 100 IPCs worth of units.

Could have a way to bribe Italy into delaying their DOW? Kinda how in G40 Japan can get the 10 IPC NO if they forgo attacking FIC.

Maybe look at as a trade off for Italy joining the CP, it speeds up the US entering the war? IDK if it make sense historically or not, but it would keep things balanced.

[oztea]

From a standpoint of historical accuracy, the most important thing this game should avoid is having set in stone joining/surrendering dates.

It already upsets me that the US joins automatically, on turn 4 of all turns! Thats like January 1916 (assuming turns are ~4 months each)
It will probably be a similar rule for the Russians quitting, and the Italians joining.

These dates should all fluctuate.
For instance something like this chart.

From turn 4 onward, roll a die for each of the following powers: USA, Russia, Italy; and consult the following chart.
Russia
1-2: Continues Fighting
3-4: No Combat Moves allowed this turn and remove D6 units from the board representing losses to the Bolshevists
5-6: Surrenders, becoming a neutral power. Productions stops.

USA
1-3: Remains Neutral
4-6: Declares war on Central Powers

Italy
1: Joins Central Powers
2-4: Remains Neutral
5-6: Joins Allied powers.

[Imperious Leader]

Italy went to war with Austro-Hungary initially ( well May 1915) and latter fought against all the central powers. Besides, how can you balance a game when a major nation could join either side?

[Imperious Leader]

For variable entry, you might consider the roll to join central or remain neutral would be for the first 1-3 turns:

Roll once per turn, can build normally:
1-4 no effect
5 joins entente one turn early ( turn 2)
6 joins entente one turn latter (turn 4)

Normally it will join on turn 3.

[oztea]

No matter how it is done, it is important to not be set in stone.

Most of the big political shifts of the war didn’t come on schedule. It wasn’t like Italy had a deadline to decide when to join or not, or the Russians made a proclamation that they were going to lay down their guns at exactly 4:00 PM.

The unexpected is important.
Otherwise, if Germany knows when Russia is going to bow out, it will shift to the western front, as if it had some sort of future-predicting machine.

[Imperious Leader]

Special Events:
Russian Revolution:
Russian Revolution can begin on turn 10.  At the beginning of turn 10 a roll is made to see if Russia goes into a civil war.  On a D6 roll of 1 the country spirals into revolution.  This roll is modified as follows:

-2 to the roll if an allied capital is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-2 to the roll if Petrograd is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-1 to the roll if Moscow is held by the Central Powers (-1/2 if contested)
-1/2 to roll (rounded down) per additional Russian or controlled allied territory that is held (-0 if contested)
+1/2 (rounded down) to the roll per enemy territory held by the Russians or its controlled allies (+0 if contested)
+2 to roll if an enemy capital is held by the Allies (+1 if contested)
The roll is made each and every turn afterwards.  If Russia goes into a revolution she will surrender and all her remaining forces (within Russia) are removed from the game.  All other units outside of Russia, including any controlled territories, are considered to belong to the Russian-controlled Allies.  Furthermore, Serbia, Romania, and Montenegro will remain controlled by the Russian player.  However, Serbia will continue to follow the special rules for the fall of Serbia.

Effect: Germany gains economic and total control of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belorussia, Kiev, Ukraine and Crimea. German units in any other Russian areas must retreat and the German player gains no benefit from other Russian areas. All Russian units are removed from play.

[GoSanchez6]

How about the Russian Revolution happening as Russia begins to lose battles and territory. The more territories Russia loses the greater the chance they bow out. Use 2 dice. Lose 1 territory 2  with 2 6 sided die. Lose 4 goes up to 5. Lose 6 9 and under. Part of the reason they had the revolution was because the war was going so badly for them. Granted it wasn’t the only one but the war helped push it into motion. What do you guys think of that.

[Redking]

@Flashman:

However I’m intending to experiment with dying my units with RIT, so I can have whatever colours I like.

This idea is interesting. Rit Dye says polyethylene and polycarbonate plastics won’t dye, but nylon-based plastics can. I had assumed plastic miniatures were polyethylene, but am I wrong?

[oztea]

IL, turn 10 seems a little late don’t you think?

[Flashman]

The figure dying technique is described on the Strelets forum:

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=0

Scroll down to “How to change plastic colour without paint”.

Haven’t tried it yet, but definitely sounds worth a go.

Revolutions:

There was nearly a revolution in Germany (in some states there was) near the end and after the war. There were strikes and mutinies in many other countries.

Perhaps there should be a “revolution tracking chart” for every major country; every big defeat, loss of home territory, or loss of convoy zone moves a country up one rung towards the breakdown of order. Every year of the war that passes also moves the target nearer, reflecting general discontent with the war, and giving a natural lifespan for the game beyond which people simply wouldn’t go on fighting. In the end, it was the countries who kept armies in the field the longest who won, rather than gaining a military victory.

Another factor here is the idea of national minorities within existing empires. That is, some provinces starting as “home” tts actually contain a majority population not of the parent nationality, who aspire to independence. For example Russia, Germany and Austria all have provinces with Polish majorities, more interested in Polish independence than who wins the war.

BTW, money paid to bribe Italy is payed to the bank, not to Italy! It represents territory promised to Italy after the war by the CP (Tunisia) & the Allies (Trent, Trieste, Dalmatia, Albania.)

[Imperious Leader]

Turns:
Each game turn constitutes four months (except the first) of real time outlined as follows:

1. August 1st - December 1914 9. May - August 1917
2. January - April 1915 10. September - December 1917
3. May - August 1915 11. January - April 1918
4. September - December 1915        12. May - August 1918
5. January - April 1916        13. September - December 1918
6. May - August 1916 14. January - April 1919 (extended game)
7. September - December 1916        15. May - August 1919
8. January - April 1917

8 November 1917 is when the Revolution took hold, so turn 10.

[Flashman]

There was a February revolution as well, but the new government continued the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution

Perhaps somehow the invasion of Russia by the Western Powers in 1918 can be reflected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

CPs get control of Red Russians, Allies keep control of White Russians? In effect, the Allies liberate Russian tts for the old Imperial regime. How to determine Reds from Whites?

[Imperious Leader]

“reds and whites” is another game. This is Axis and Allies, not World in Flames WW1.

[Redking]

@Flashman:

The figure dying technique is described on the Strelets forum:

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=0

Scroll down to “How to change plastic colour without paint”.

Haven’t tried it yet, but definitely sounds worth a go.

Thanks! Gonna experiment first with my FMG Italians. If that doesn’t work, I’ll try a few light-colored HBG units.

[Flashman]

““reds and whites” is another game. This is Axis and Allies, not World in Flames WW1.”

But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

Attached some alternative schedules.

USA entering on turn 4 only works if we assume 1 round = 1 year.

GreatWarC.xls

[Imperious Leader]

But the Allies believed that they were reopening the Eastern Front as part of the same war.

And they did that AFTER WW1 during the period of 1918-23, fighting for the whites…so different war, different game. The Government and that fought against the Central powers and participated in WW1 was overthrown and once peace was made they are out of the war. Their is no part of WW1 that included battles relating to the civil war and the situation of the communists and other factions. They had their own struggle and it was not even remotely related to the Great War. So their is no need or reality of tying the two separate events as part of the Great War.

Besides the game is already made and the game would not benefit from any Red/White star skirmishes. The “wish list” in any event would benefit from rules and concepts dealing with the Great War, and not the Russian Revolution.

Why not have one continuous war from 1870-1945 tying all the various connected struggles? Oh heck throw in the American Civil War too.

[Imperious Leader]

German Mutiny:
On turn 13 the German Navy mutinies.  The mutiny only affects German naval units.  When an attack or move is made, roll a D6; on a 1-4 the attack/move may not proceed.  German forces defend as normal.

[Yavid]

Larry has already said what units will be in the game and it will be about as complex as '42.2, USA joins on turn 4 and there will be no techs

[WILD BILL]

I would think that the Russian revolution is triggered by an event, rather then a certain turn.

Could be Russian production being cut down to a certain level. That would keep the Germans, Austrians/Hungarians pressing hard to the east so they might be able to shut down that front. If they take their foot off the throttle, they have to keep fighting the Russians. This would also keep the Ottomans engaged.

Maybe they are given a goal like defeating the Ottomans (conquering Constantinople/Istanbul) by say turn 6-7, and holding the line in Eastern Europe to avoid the revolution leading to its exit.

Could be the loss of original victory cities (or the capital of St Petersburg) causes the Revolution. Russia could start with St Petersburg, Moscow and 2 other orig VC. If they fall below 2 VC’s (St Petersburg +1) the Revolution takes them out of the game. If they capture a victory city (Constantinople), before they lose one of their own they continue the fight, as long as the still hold their capital.

[Imperious Leader]

Special Events:

Russian Revolution:
Russian Revolution – Can begin on turn 10.  At the beginning of turn 10 a roll is made to see if Russia goes into a civil war.  On a D6 roll of 1 the country spirals into revolution.  This roll is modified as follows:

-2 to the roll if an allied capital is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-2 to the roll if Petrograd is held by the Central Powers (-1 if contested)
-1 to the roll if Moscow is held by the Central Powers (-1/2 if contested)
-1/2 to roll (rounded down) per additional Russian or controlled allied territory that is held (-0 if contested)
+1/2 (rounded down) to the roll per enemy territory held by the Russians or its controlled allies (+0 if contested)
+2 to roll if an enemy capital is held by the Allies (+1 if contested)

The roll is made each and every turn afterwards.  If Russia goes into a revolution she will surrender and all her remaining forces (within Russia) are removed from the game.  All other units outside of Russia, including any controlled territories, are considered to belong to the Russian-controlled Allies.  Furthermore, Serbia, Romania, and Montenegro will remain controlled by the Russian player.  However, Serbia will continue to follow the special rules for the “fall of Serbia.”

Effect: Germany gains economic and total control of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belorussia, Kiev, Ukraine and Crimea. German units in any other Russian areas must retreat and the German player gains no benefit from other Russian areas. All Russian units are removed from play.