Any version of Global: US Bomber- Multi-theater approach. Conceptual test/post



  • This thread is created to not clutter its parent thread needlessly: Below are copies of my posts from:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=24724.45

    Quote from: Peck on Today at 02:13:44 pm
    For USA to sustain a bomber campaign they will need to purchase consistent replacements.  This would drain their economy to the point of only being able to fight on one side of the board.  The bombers also need a place to land and it’s hard to take territory without land units.  If I were axis and saw USA doing this I would have a heyday.
    end of quote
    James:
    I have devised a method for using the Pacific as your approach to Russia and thus German units with a sustained US bomber campaign.

    I have coined this process: “Multi-theater” production. Here are the nuts and bolts. US starting assets deploy in the Pacific, using a patented process inspired by online opponents, This bomber force can operate “multi-theaterly” when based in China. Seeing early action turn 8 versus Germany if my plan holds true. I believe USSR even helping China, with all 3 axis on them, can hold until turn 10.

    I developed a method for placing 9 bomber, 5 fighters, and 1 tactical bomber in China on turn 4. The bombers can be used as early as turn 5 against Germany, but I intend to use them until turn 7 to curtail Japanese expansion. This concept is to give the Chinese units “teeth”. By clearing any counter attack force Japan can wield, China can march to its borders using US bombers as casualties. This assures a constant “supply” route from WUSA to Moscow. Once in Moscow: 15 bombers/fighter/tacicals clear German supply lines (stacks of 10 or less) advancing towards Moscow. Only his large stacks will be immune. Picture USSR receiving 6 US bombers a round plus their builds, and these US bombers clearing all nearby German occupied Russian factories without a large defense stack.

    This method can be shut down by an early DOW against the U.S. by Japan.

    Using your starting fleet, starting air, and 3 rounds of Bomber builds, I created a situation that intimidates me as a former Japanese Player on US turn 4.

    The test game is here, I am still looking for an Axis player to test (either A2 or A3 rules will be fine): (if someone steps up to test this with me I am at a disadvantage by spelling out my intent, however I will proceed anyway, if it holds with the enemy knowing your plans, it should prove sound)
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=24753.new#new

    I intend to support my above post with this trial game. One game will not be definitive, but it should prove the concept feasible or non-feasible.

    To Jen: regarding my earlier post. Do I understand the rule correctly, USSR fighters may only be shot at 3 times regardless of the number of German AA guns present. They are capped at 3 shots per gun AND capped at the total number of enemy planes….thus 3 USSR air would only be shot at 3 times independent of the number of defensive aaguns.

    Edit: I will also credit whoever tests this concept with me, as I credited my opponent when I crafted “Operation Hollywood” for Revised back in the day. If this approach works, I’ll give it a name. I’ll likely not build 6 bombers a round, but will probably commit to 4 so I can build in the Atlantic as well.



  • Quote from: JamesAleman on Today at 05:33:27 pm
    To Jen: regarding my earlier post. Do I understand the rule correctly, USSR fighters may only be shot at 3 times regardless of the number of German AA guns present. They are capped at 3 shots per gun AND capped at the total number of enemy planes….thus 3 USSR air would only be shot at 3 times independent of the number of defensive aaguns.

    Ruanek’s Reply:
    I’m not Jen, but I can still answer.

    Each AA gun essentially adds 3 to the max number of attacking planes that can be shot at.  No plane can ever be shot at more than once by AA in a round.  So if the attacker has 3 or less planes, then any more than 1 AA gun is relatively worthless (except for being taken as a casualty).



  • Here are two sample scenarios for Turn 3 set up:

    Note: No Japanese builds, allies incomplete, Atlantic board not changed, I just wanted to see the force options…
    What Japan does can change the outcome, however, I suspect “test” will be used more than “test1” unless I want to sink the Japanese fleet with a counter attack.

    Key features: no allied U.S. air units are risked, preserving the threat from US air.
    This assumes no early DOW by Japan against UK/US/Anzac and Russia stacks Amur, or enters Korea/Manchuria turn 2 if not attacked. I did not role play Russia or Japan, I just used typical force moves and stacked the Jap air where I could count it easily, it is assumed it can strike all allied areas.

    • test.AAM (9.11 KB - downloaded 0 times.)

    test.AAM



  • map 2

    Also Guam is a valid backup site for the same forces if Philippines is Axis controlled. (Adjust defending infantry down by 2)

    • test1.AAM (9.11 KB - downloaded 1 times.)

    Also Note I may have messed up India(built 4 times instead of 3): Builds were 4 art, save 1: 2 inf,3 art save 1: 7infantry, 2 infantry from Eastern Persia and z98 transport-sitting at Cel, plus 2 infantry (from Malaya and W.Ind), plus starting 6inf, 1 art should = 8 art, 21 infantry in India by turn 3

    Note: the 2 maps are at the end of turn 3….not 4.

    test1.AAM



  • Easy counter - Sub interdiction on Eastern and Western.



  • @shadowguidex:

    Easy counter - Sub interdiction on Eastern and Western.

    I suppose that is easy…if you see it coming, built the subs, move them to the US without being scuttled, and US ignores them…I can build anything I want turn 4 to defeat a few subs. But yes, it is an easy counter…how about my counter of early DOW.

    Hop on the game and post Germany’s first turn, We’ll see 🙂

    I suspect you’ll need a total of 26 axis subs, feel free  😄

    Turn 4 US: Buy 3 fighters-to scramble, 2 destroyers West or East Coast plus 2 bombers to sustain efforts overseas.
    Turn 5 US: As above, Next Coast as needed…this is an extreme answer, but effective to “easy” counter.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @shadowguidex:

    Easy counter - Sub interdiction on Eastern and Western.

    One would assume that the American fighters/bombers coupled with some destroyers would negate an interdiction policy.  I believe the parent post means a strategic bomber campaign given that there is no pressing need to spend on The Department of Homeland Defense.

    That said, Strategic Bombers are great, but they also suck.  It’s like the tank dash.  It’s awesome the first time you do it, but once your opponent figures it out, you’ll fail to make it work again.

    Here’s one way I see it failing:  Germany has 6 AA Guns, Italy has 3 AA Guns.  IF we are worried about you hitting, for argument’s sake, new builds in Germany, then these 9 AA Guns give me 27 shots at your bombers.  I would expect to see 4 or 5 bombers lost to AA Gun fire.  (You had mentioned attacking new builds.  Only reason I am pointing this out.)  Granted, it would be a bone headed maneuver to attack a complex so heavily guarded, which is why it would derail the bombers.

    Another way would be to leave your fighters/tacticals in the one complex you are maxing out (or two complexes) so you have high value pieces + 10 new builds to attack said bombers giving you a layered defense.  AA Guns, New Builds to soak hits, high value defenders to inflict pain.

    A valid attack would be to hit the complexes, but the complexes have unlimited AA Gun shots and you need escorts to negate your opponents interceptors, so you won’t be only building strategic bombers, you’ll also be building fighters which, in turn, would reduce the max number of strategic bombers you can employ. (Since you spent part of the money on fighters.)

    Lastly, one cannot win with bombers alone.  I don’t care if you have a bazillion strategic bombers, long range aircraft and heavy bombers technology, if you dont have at least 1 transport and 1 infantry you will lose.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Although I would never “discount” an allied bomber strategy (I like it!)  I would be wary…

    Any of these “just build ALL this” strategies, are always susceptible to counter.

    I would opt to do something like  “Build atleast 2 bombers a turn + whatever else”  trend.  That should give you a bit of everything you need.  OR build bombers for the European campaign/Ships for the pacific, or whatever else works.



  • Well, here is what I want to test:

    Amass the proposed 15 bombers, then drop to 3-4 bombers a turn (to replace losses).

    Again, the other allies are the ground forces, they are local native troops and know the land better then my US boys, they can shed the blood for the IPCs. The bombers just clear the road for them, so to speak.

    I would love the opportunity to hit a factory with only new builds, plus aagun and juicy planes, however:
    The factories I have in mind are: Nukr(if built), Sukr, Nov, Ros-(if built), Vol. (Western Ukraine,Ukraine,Novgorod,Rostov,Volgograd)
    The shooting gallery would also include these “pit stop” locations for troops taking the scenic route to Mos: Bal, Epl,Cau (Baltic States, Eastern Poland,Caucasus)

    In Asia, I land 9inf,art, 10ftr,2 tac,5 bombers on round 3 on either. (philippines, or -2 inf on Guam) Philippines is preferred if Japan does not DOW earlier then round 4.

    From Philippines or Guam: US4 has 5 ftr, 1 tac, 5 bmbers + 4 bombers-Queensland that can all strike Japanese staged Yunnan and land in UK held Burma. The real threat is that this 15 unit force (10@4 5@3) can strike the Japanese fleet at: z36,37,38,z41(bmbrs-only),42,54,54,43,44,45,33,34,35,20,21,18,19,6(bombr-only,unless at Guam). Plus my starting navy at Queensland can also help 🙂

    If Japan holds Burma, the 9 bombers can reinforce India or the 15 units can land in Szechwan if able.

    I would also build navy in the Atlantic starting turn 4.

    Just my thoughts.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Gargantua:

    Although I would never “discount” an allied bomber strategy (I like it!)  I would be wary…

    Any of these “just build ALL this” strategies, are always susceptible to counter.

    I would opt to do something like  “Build atleast 2 bombers a turn + whatever else”  trend.  That should give you a bit of everything you need.  OR build bombers for the European campaign/Ships for the pacific, or whatever else works.

    It is amazing you ever doubt me with how often we agree with each other, Gargantua.



  • @Cmdr:

    @Gargantua:

    Although I would never “discount” an allied bomber strategy (I like it!)  I would be wary…

    Any of these “just build ALL this” strategies, are always susceptible to counter.

    I would opt to do something like  “Build atleast 2 bombers a turn + whatever else”  trend.  That should give you a bit of everything you need.  OR build bombers for the European campaign/Ships for the pacific, or whatever else works.

    It is amazing you ever doubt me with how often we agree with each other, Gargantua.

    He has a reputation to protect.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Young:

    @Cmdr:

    @Gargantua:

    Although I would never “discount” an allied bomber strategy (I like it!)  I would be wary…

    Any of these “just build ALL this” strategies, are always susceptible to counter.

    I would opt to do something like  “Build atleast 2 bombers a turn + whatever else”  trend.  That should give you a bit of everything you need.  OR build bombers for the European campaign/Ships for the pacific, or whatever else works.

    It is amazing you ever doubt me with how often we agree with each other, Gargantua.

    He has a reputation to protect.

    Then he should NEVER doubt me!


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