Sea Lion is a very good Strategy for Germany if done Correct


  • Sorry i was wrong. There are not 2 carriers at hawai. There are three and a battleship and many small ships.

    The other fleet wit one batlleship and cruiser and Transport take the Phillipines.

    Sometimes they attack the english battleship only with bombers but not always.

    My point is if Japan does a round 1 attack on the USA you cant counter it at your first round with the USA. You have to build troops and play defensive.

    The Problem is if Germany plans a Sea Lion you have to help europe with the USA but you cant because of the round 1 attack from Japan!

    Again my question is can the USA ignore the Japan atttack for one round?

  • '19 '17 '16

    Hmm, the UK BB in SZ37 can be hit with 1ftr, 1Cru and 2SBs. To just attack it with bombers is pretty dicey.

    Thanks for clarifying.

    You have to position so they can’t attack the fleet in SZ10. Otherwise, I think yes you can build mostly Atlantic turn one against this play. Depending on how many TTs are within range you can consider flying some more planes into Hawaii to defend it.

    You’ve got to be thinking how you’re going to hit the SZ35 fleet with this sort of play. Max 4 ships just isn’t enough to fight and survive and you should be punishing this. If the UK BB is alive, you can gather a multinational fleet around Java, with planes for attack. If not, I guess it’s somewhat harder.

    US1 I’d be inclined to move 1 ftr 1Cru 1TT 1inf 1art to Iceland/SZ123 and the bomber to London. Depends a lot on what fleet is around though. Watch out for subs which can hit that force and ignore fighters. This generally has to be reinforced by the UK so you have to decide if you can fly planes out of London UK1. Given they can return UK2 for a G3 Sea Lion, it should be OK. The problem is if there’s a sub living in SZ106. If there is, you need the UK DD to protect the TT, perhaps aided by the US Cruiser so you can’t do the Iceland gambit and then you also can’t fly US planes to London via Iceland - you have to go via Gibraltar or Morocco which are exposed to Italian amphibious assaults. SZ110 is a problem too if they control Normandy.

    There’s a few other things to consider of course with the above - but you can work them out.

    I’m curious about what would be so wrong about moving the UK CV from Egypt to India in this scenario? UK3 it can reach SZ36 IIRC.


  • Hi simon33,

    thx for your reply. Why should i land fighters in hawai. If Japan crushes them anyway with coastel bombardment and so on in turn ? I mean yes the us has more money at the beginning but this would be a waste of resources… (Japan has enough planes).

    Your other ideas are good.

    UK in the West: I dont do the taranto raid with UK. I always put my ships to Gibraltar and i only destroy the destroyer and the Transport from italy so my fleet can move through. I have a problem to move the fighters out of UK in turn 2 because Germany can also do a Sealion on turn 2 (Germany purchases 2 Bombers and a submarine in  turn 1).

    But i think its important that the USA has to place their first build in turn 1 complete in the Atlantic. Thx for the advise.

    I have a little rule question which is not clearly descriped in the manual (as so often…):

    Can you tell me if the USA gets the extra money when they are attacked imidiatley on turn 1 from Japan at the start of their us turn to buy extra Units or do you get it in your collect income Phase (i mean when you can buy units on turn 1 or do they get the extra Money in their income Phase on turn 1)?


  • Dont know if anyone else has said this, but in a J1, there is no sealion.

    I haven’t planned sealion in a long time, so correct me if i am wrong here.

    There is never a sealion in G2, so, lets look at G3

    Assume:
    Germany has 1 TT
    G1, build 3TT
    G2 build 9 TT

    This means that germany has 13 TT
    in them, they put 13 inf, 6 tanks and 7 art
    their maximum strngth is have 5 tacs, 5 ftrs and 1 bomber
    lets say they lost 1 ftr and 1 tac
    so they have 4 ftrs, 4 tacs and 2 bomber

    I assume they send 1 sub to 106 and it wins, while the rest are used as casualties against the british atlantic  fleet. (which is viped out, all except the CR in 91)

    UK sees the first turn TT buy and thinks…. SHAIT…

    they have 2 inf, 1 mech, 4 aa, in london and 2 inf 1 ftr in scotland. the scot fighter scrambles . They drop taronto and buy 9 infs (and saves 1). Since they know it is a J1 game they send one ftr from gib  to london, they send the maltafighter to gib and (if they can) they transport inf + tank from ontario to uk.  If uk can,they also send their CR to ontario.

    So
    buy 9 inf
    scotland -> London 2 inf
    91 -> 106 CR
    98-> gib 1 tac
    malta -> gib 1 ftr

    US looks at this, they think, how can i  Help?

    US buy: all pacific, perhaps 2-4 bombers (if  Germany killed both UK TTs and/or lost 2 planes or less)

    They move their 1 fighters and tac from 10 us and their TT and DD to join up with the british CR in SZ 10 to Ontario, they use their ftr in W US and their fighters  in E us , their DD and their bomber to kill the german sub in 106 and land them all in ontario.

    After this their ontarioforce should be
    3 ftr, 1 tac, 1 bomber, 1 inf, 1 tank, 1 dd and 1 TT.

    France: Screen the uk fighter in gib
    UK2
    They have 1 IPC saved, 2 ipc from taking perisa in UK1 and 5 IPC for NO giving them a total of 36 IPC
    buy 7 inf, one Airbase for Ontario
    Move UK ftr from gib to UK

    Now they have
    4 ftrs
    1 bomber
    4 + 9 + 7 inf
    1 mech
    5 AA
    and a 50% chance of having the 1 inf and 1 tank from ontario in uk (if 106 survived UK1)

    US2
    Buy: All pacific
    Move all of 5 planes, 1 inf and 1 tank from ontario to London.

    The forces will then be on G3
    13 inf, 6 tanks and 7 art + 4 ftr, 4 tac and 2 bombers from Germany = total of 36 units.
    vs
    5 AA, 1 mech, 21 inf, 1 tank, 7 ftrs, 1 tac, 2 bombers = 38 units

    this is a 96 % win for the defenders.
    If germany used G2 to stratbomb UK with 2 bombers and 4 tacs, I can assume they lost 1 tac, and did 20 IPC in damage.

    UK2 would then build 1 Airbase and 1 inf and 1 tank, fly the tac from Gib to UK, while US flies in the bombers from W US to UK.
    This will give at least a 63 % chance for the defence.

    I this scenario, I have been very helpfull to the germans, I assumed they only lost 1 plane in G1, that nothing went to help protect the italian fleet in taronto, that they dont need any planed in the channel to prevent a scramble  (which would destory their invasion), that they didn’t need to protect their fleet and that they viped out everything in the atlantic in G1. And still, they have trouble winning. Because the US can get landtroops and FTRs to UK in A J1, there is no Sealion. In a J2, the US can still get 4 bombers to UK when they fear a sealion.


  • That’s a little different attack then I have seen against the US. Generally the 3rd Japanese carrier is used to get planes into the Phil ground battle to insure a win there. You don’t get to use bombardment because of the sea battle, and just 2 loaded transports could fail to take out the 2 US inf and ftr on the Phil.

    By using the 3rd carrier at Phil we generally take out the Hawaiian fleet with a sub 2dd and 4 planes, then NCM the 2 carriers, cruiser and BB to Wake (which is also taken) to pick up the planes leaving a dd alive in sz26 to block out the US home fleet from being used in a counter attack (so there is no counter attack).

    I can see that 3 loaded carriers, BB cruiser and a couple dd sitting in sz26 off Hawaii as very intimidating. The US could hit you though, and have the Anz try to finish you off. US has 1dd, 1 cruiser, 1 bb, 1 carrier, 4 ftrs, 1 tac, 1 bmr all in range. Yea it is a suicide mission, but they could roll for 2 rounds to a point that if you take hits on your carriers they retreat and you lose planes. Then the Anz takes a run at you with cruiser and 3 ftrs to knock out your capital ships.

    I realize this does nothing to help the English, but Japan would be neutered if things went well. Your US1 purchase could be ships for the East coast to get things going over there.

    An after though is that UK does a def buy UK1 (6 inf and 1 ftr). Instead of starting a liberation fleet on the East coast you buy 4 bmrs US1 and place them on the East US. If the Germans build a bunch of transports then fly those 4 bmrs to London. I think it would tip the scales to a UK win, but not sure about in a low luck game?

    BTW, no you don’t get the US NO bonus to spend on the first turn if Japan attacks J1. NO’s are paid out in the collect income phase that is at the end of your turn. Your starting income remains at 52 IPCs to spend US1.


  • @ Kreuzfeld. You are totally right but the problem is if i do this buys for UK they can do nothing for many rounds in Europe. Italy gets very strong in the med. The USA have to fight Japan. The allies in Europe  are getting a problem because UK is isolatet because of only inf buy and USA has to Focus on Japan (but you are right i have to do this buy for UK).

    @ Wild Bill

    Wel in the last game they didnt atack the battleship from UK (i know this is worth 20 IPC but thats another question for the later turns). They used the japanese bombers to help at the phillipines.

    Japans only strategy is to get the USA in a full pacific war.

    Meanwhile in Europe: The UK is conqured (if they dont buy defensive) or issolatet because of two turn inf buys. Nearly no us troops to help in Europe (because of heavy J1 attack from Japan)! Italy is getting very strong in the med because UK cant support the med (again inf buys)!

    Ahh and buy the way if Germany sees that the UK buys only inf on turn 1. Germany will Focus on other things but they buy ships and more aircraft to isolate UK from Europe (remember in turn 2 they build an airport in the normandy…). Also they sink the ships at Gibraltar with their fleeet…

    My question is can i focus in turn 1 only on the atlantic with the USA and what should i purchase and does the USA get the extra income to spend on turn 1 in the unit purchase phase or at the end in their income phase if they are attacked in turn 1?


  • Sorry i did a mistake.

    They dont use the bombers for the phillipines. I will look at the full board what their turn was. But there are 3 carriers definetly at hawai.


  • Ok i looked at the board.

    • Japan has three 3 transports at the beginning right?

    • So they can take phillipines easy without any air Support. They buy 1or 2 transports in turn 1 so they can invade hawai on turn 2.

    • ahh yes and the Bombers and one small battleship attack the UK battleship……


  • Japan has 3 transports to start with, but usually you want to take out Borneo with a J1 attack.  Otherwise UK gets too much money.  Even with two transports, it is a risky battle to go after the Philippines without a carrier to lend air support.  Hence you have at most two carriers and one transport for the raids towards Hawaii.  I think that standard J1 + Pearl Harbor plan calls for capturing Wake Island plus sub/2DD/4 plane raid against the US Pacific fleet.  Unless dice are ridiculous, the Japanese have no chance of capturing Hawaii on turn 2.

    You end up trading a sub + 2DD for a US sub+DD+Cruiser+transport.  That isn’t too bad of an exchange but you are out of position, allowing the ANZAC/UK Pacific to gain extra income for the first few rounds.  Also you seriously risk allowing the UK/China/Russia to fortify Yunnan.  Once they are dug in there for a few rounds, there is no way of getting them out.  You can’t be trading Japanese infantry for Chinese infantry.  Attrition is not a game you can play as the Axis.  Hence I tend not to bother with J1 + Pearl Harbor.  Instead I prefer to gamble with a Japanese DD going to SZ 62.  If you win you mess up ANZAC for the first few rounds.

    Play more TripleA games and you will rapidly see the weaknesses of that J1/Sea Lion plan.  People here have played 100+ G40 games and, with the aid of the Battle Calculator, can easily spot the flaws of many opening strategies.  Make one mistake and the game could be over.  Spotting minor mistakes is harder to do in a live board game.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @AlphaAeffchen:

    Hi simon33,

    thx for your reply. Why should i land fighters in hawai. If Japan crushes them anyway with coastel bombardment and so on in turn ? I mean yes the us has more money at the beginning but this would be a waste of resources… (Japan has enough planes).

    Probably you’re right if there are 3 carriers. You can only get 5 planes on. Putting this into the battle calculator even with only one TT, It’s 80% with a 13IPC swing Japan’s way. Reducing to 64% and 12IPC swing if you throw away your bomber as fodder.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Arthur:

    Hence you have at most two carriers and one transport for the raids towards Hawaii.

    He’s already said it’s a 3CV commitment to Pearl Harbour.

    If I was doing that, I’d commit 2TTs to Philippines and one to Borneo. Without the Cruiser, the BB, DD and sub are a slightly dicey naval battle too with a scramble - probably need a fighter to support it, best from SZ33.

    Yes, it’s 64% battle even if you use the tank but what are the consequences of it going bad? Not that devastating.

    You’d need to buy at least 2TTs J1 - and divert one to the Philippines if you need to.


  • I see Japan so out of position if they throw three carriers after Hawaii.  Don’t forget that ANZAC can land 3 fighters on Hawaii, bringing the total up to 8 allied planes + US bomber. If the Japanese attack with 2 inf 2 art 3 fighters and 3 tacs, along with a BB and cruiser bombard, I see a 25% chance of taking the island on round 2.

    Yes, you can throw even more forces at taking the island, and likely can hold it for a bunch of rounds if you are very determined.  Meanwhile China is out of control with UK Pacific, and you will struggle to adequately defend the Money Island invaders from the weak UK Pacific Navy + air force.  If you don’t have the money islands and are struggling in Mainland Asia, the game is over for Japan.  You could be struggling to earn as much as China + ANZAC + UK Pacific.  At that point the US can spend  almost 100% on the European side.

  • '19 '17 '16

    Great point with the ANZAC fighters.

    Strongest J1 buy with this strategy is 3TT+art. If you assume the tank is saved for this assault on Hawaii, you still don’t have enough artillery and need to bring 4inf art tank. This is a 60% attack but even if you win you’ve probably lost the bulk of your air force as Japan and the US can rebuild faster.

    And as you say, UK_Pac are running amuck in China and likely retaking Borneo UK1. Perhaps you’d need to omit this attack as Japan? Doesn’t seem a winning move.

  • '19 '17 '16

    I’ve thought about it and the only way I see this move working at all well is if you omit the attack on Borneo. That means 3TTs can go for the Philippines.

    Assuming that they still take Kwangtung, UK_Pac should then step on Sumatra and collect 18PUs and buy a fighter UK1 to defend against Strat Bombing which can be quite devastating.

    If Taranto is off the table, you are likely to be able to clear the Atlantic of subs with the DD and bomber getting remaining subs in SZ106. Can’t say I like this aspect very much. I think Taranto needs to be done anyway.


  • Assuming that all three carriers are in Midway or Hawaii, they are not in position to help out with anything in the crucial money Island region until J4.  That is a long time for the ANZAC + UK Pacific to bully around the remaining Japanese Navy.  They can’t directly attack the fleet if stacked together, but there is no way for the Japanese fleet to split into two or three groups to protect transports taking islands.

    If you want to scare the US without getting so out of position, have 2 carriers in Caroline Islands and one carrier off of of Johnston Islands.  You can get the Johnston Carrier back in the Money Islands on J3 and threaten a big attack force against Pearl Harbor.

    Please do use your valuable transports to take Alaska or the Aleutians on J2 or J3.  You just barely had enough to capture the Money Islands by J3 without those detours.  Think about the combined value of the Money Islands + Malaya.  That is a massive swing for the Allied vs Axis economies.  Even missing one island is a 13 PU swing each round.  Considering the bad manufacturing position that the Allies begin with, you can’t be wasting time.

    Definitely moves to Hawaii do work in face-to-face games where there is less planning and calculations; a person who has more experience and time to react will be happy to see the Japanese Navy distracted from their more important mission.

  • '19 '17 '16

    Trusting you meant to write “Please don’t” starting that third paragraph.

  • '22 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '12

    I’ve never seen sealion work for the Axis, and that’s 200+ games.  London is very hard to defend against the US.  The USSR gets a few turns of running wild and can actually defeat Germany if the Germans don’t watch it.

    Combining it w/a J1 sounds crazy.  In reality the US can just ignore Europe and smash Japan then wheel around afterward.  Losing most your original ground units, some of your planes, and an entire turn of production really hurts Barbarossa.

    Anyone want to test this on the league?  No LL though and 26 bid to Allies that can’t go to Uk proper obviously


  • @AlphaAeffchen:

    @ Kreuzfeld. You are totally right but the problem is if i do this buys for UK they can do nothing for many rounds in Europe. Italy gets very strong in the med. The USA have to fight Japan. The allies in Europe  are getting a problem because UK is isolatet because of only inf buy and USA has to Focus on Japan (but you are right i have to do this buy for UK).

    In the scenario I made, US will only have to buy 2 bombers on US 1 (in most scenarios) and move 3 of the US planes to canada. They are capable of going towards Japan if Germany don’t buy the TTs in G2.

    If germany doen’t buy 3 TTs on G1 (and save their money instead), I am doing taronto, and buy 6 inf and 1 ftr and lose no time in the Med. If they do buy 7 art on G1, I am buying a mIC in egypt and 5 inf in UK.

    The only “loosing investments” UK has is : 3 inf instead of ftr on UK1, no taronto on UK 1 (I think 3 useless german transports might be too steep a price for germany to pay for this result).

    The other losing investment is the canadian airbase and a few allied TTs on UK2/US2, however, they are more than offsett by the 9 german TTs that has to be bought to force me to do it.

    The advantage I get for this plan is that no german should try for the sealion after US1, then that is just a lost game if they buy the 9 TTs. This means that I can (if I want to) send everything US builds against japan, including US turn 1 build. I am still taking Persia on UK1, so I can build the mIC on UK2 and shut down the middle east as fast as possible. My favourite way of playing the UK is to have 1 mIC in each of iran, iraq and egypt, and to use them to buy volumes of inf and mechs for a giant uk landarmy that can reach where i want them

    I still think the game is favouring the axis, all I was commenting on was that in a J1, it is so much cheaper for the allied to prevent the sealion, so it will never happen.

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