Phase two ideas template: land and naval combat

[Imperious Leader]

With air support, the +1 bonus from FTR to ARM 1-to-1 is in addition to FTR’s ability to kill?

++++ yes right… they get both the fighter boosts the tanks and the planes get to fire as well… just like how artillery is treated.

With the automatic retreat, I don’t support yet.

+++++++ its just a concept to look at. The idea is to model the idea that units can break in combat. IN combat its not allways possible to continue the effort. Look at the Germans at moscow on dec 5th 1941. Hitler launches operation Typhon and the whermacht cannot move more than a few kilometers closer because they are exhausted and cold. Sometimes the men who fight can no longer have the stomach to fight on… they are like a tired fighter having spend all their energy. This is a good idea because it brings into the fold all other idea as well. it can model: equipment breakdown, logistical supply problems, tired soldiers, morale, leadership, the “cost” of the offensive. IN war you cannot allways just turn on and off the “battle button” armies don’t allways behave like this. Note: the italians and Soviets cannot just steamroll… they have unique problems in how they fight war. This is very historical and presented in a easy format.

With Air Transport, I think thats under non-combat-move. Airborne Assault would be the combat-move counterpart.

++++++ yes it is but i group them together as an air mission . you can perform more than one mission so its easier to group them to see exactly what air units can do.

With Air Escort, we once discussed that it would be too much to explicitly assign air escort for the damage a strategic bombing raid can cause. Aren’t we just letting “Long Range Aircraft” implicitly include escort fighters? (ability to pay say 5 IPC instead of letting the BMR die)

+++++ ON the escort thing… fighters can naturally escort and protect bombers ( like i had illustrated with naval loses against submarines attacks BTW). This does not matter if its LRA or not. The 5 buck thing does not seem plausible IMO.

With Rail Movement, I also think thats under non-combat-move. I don’t like the rail capacity number per nation though, its not modelling territories.
We should model only major rail lines. The special (faster) movement should also require not changing betweel rail lines.

++++ Rail lines are in all nations ( well most) the numbers are largely representitive of the economic capacity to redeploy units thru friendly territories. I would include this to contain captured enemy territories, except only after an addtional turn to simulate the transfer of rail gauge and other construction to comply that nations capacity. The number idea is also an easier way to stimulate strategy because you have to choose which units to move by rail.

With coastal defense, what happens with assphibious assault?
++++++Coastal defense is basically the ability for land based defending planes to be able to be called into duty and fight the invasion. These can be used against the ships… actually let me get back to you on that… the answer will take more time than i have now.

[tekkyy]

you can perform more than one mission

I duno about that. You can perform one combat mission and one non-combat mission but I duno about 2 combat missions or 2 non-combat missions.

like i had illustrated with naval loses against submarines attacks BTW

Oh, I might not have understood the “screening” part then.
When a DD “screens” a CV, what happens to submarine hits towards DD? and submarine hits towards CV?

[Imperious Leader]

I duno about that. You can perform one combat mission and one non-combat mission but I duno about 2 combat missions or 2 non-combat missions.

They cannot perform 2 combat missions as the active player. They can perfrom DAS as defender and one mission as attacker. Only one as active and one as passive player. In non combat they can also say transport planes ( 4-6 month turns)

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like i had illustrated with naval loses against submarines attacks BTW
Oh, I might not have understood the “screening” part then.
When a DD “screens” a CV, what happens to submarine hits towards DD? and submarine hits towards CV?

No the sub hit is allocated to the screening ship instead. if your out of cruiers and destroyers then any ship can be targeted instead for the hit.

[tekkyy]

yes right… they get both the fighter boosts the tanks and the planes get to fire as well… just like how artillery is treated.

I think its weird for the planes to have a destroy mission of its own, yet supporting tanks at the same time.

How that you’ve mentioned artillery…I think its strange there too
why artillery helps infantry but not tanks?
I used to think he rule is modelling advancing infantry spotting for the artillery

in which case, it should be artillery getting the bonus

[tekkyy]

how does the bombing-FTR-selectively-attack thing work with retreating units?

[Imperious Leader]

I think its weird for the planes to have a destroy mission of its own, yet supporting tanks at the same time.

++++ what do you mean “destroy mission” they can perform a mission of combat over the airspace, while facilitating the punch of tanks into enemy lines by taking out enemy armor ahead of the armor spearhead. They do this preemtively when the defender has not supporting planes, while they also add to the tanks attack ability as they disrupt the defense. a +1 is not much to add for this huge benifit.

How that you’ve mentioned artillery…I think its strange there too
why artillery helps infantry but not tanks?

+++++ its like this> artillery helps infantry and planes help tanks. Its a question of mobile vs. static battlefield stasis. Artillery softens up the defending positions so the infantry does not get chewed up, Air and tanks also work together in unison but on a higher mobile scale, while infantry and artillery are fixed based systems.  Infantry mops up what the tanks leave behind. The tanks are the major spearhead. Infantry only slows them down. Of course they are both necessary. But the idea is to clearly define the boundries of each group of units and how they relate to each other.

I used to think he rule is modelling advancing infantry spotting for the artillery

in which case, it should be artillery getting the bonus

+++++ Artillery and infantry work together, but artillery does not benifit because its not getting mowed down by enemy machine guns, while its destroying up the dug in defenders so as to save lives. The artillery is too far back to gain some benifit. Of course they need to be spotted, but they have their own field service for that. Infantry calls " hey mable i need artillery support on hill 234" then artillery basically destroys the defending infantry and the attacking infantry have some benifit. This benifit is everything for infantry and thats why they recieve a bonus.

how does the bombing-FTR-selectively-attack thing work with retreating units?

+++++++++ Ok when either player decides to end combat, all units just retreat. their is no additional combat. Remember at any time after at least one combat round any portion or all of your forces. their is no parting shot rule.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

a +1 is not much to add for this huge benifit.

What that was used to be blitzkrieg thing?
Then again, wikipedia does say German “Blitzkrieg relies on close co-operation between infantry and panzers (tanks).”

their is no parting shot rule.

oooh thats a new direction
all of a sudden just because you can’t out air unit selectively attack with respect to retreating forces?  :-D

although I think not too hard to reason why no parting shot

[Imperious Leader]

What that was used to be blitzkrieg thing?
Then again, wikipedia does say German “Blitzkrieg relies on close co-operation between infantry and panzers (tanks).”

++++ yes they all have a part in the concept of “blitzkreig” but only having 2 types of +1 bonus art/inf and tank/air is a good basic and simple way to reflect this. IN blitzkreig concept Air and armor both punched at the decisive point into and thru the enemy lines and razed hell in the rear, while infantry and artillery mop’ed up the straglers. It was not done in perfect unison because tanks move at 45 MPH and planes at 450MPH while infantry is at 4 MPH. one group then another.

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their is no parting shot rule.
oooh thats a new direction
all of a sudden just because you can’t out air unit selectively attack with respect to retreating forces?

++++ ok your not clear… The only idea is simply if after destroying one sides air forces…. we allow any additional hits to spill over into as land combat causaulties… because look at the following:

5 fighters and 2 bombers are engaged against 2 defending fighters .  Both defending fighters hit and the fighters roll but yield 3 hits and the bombers havent even got a chance to roll… the solution is to allow the 3rd fighter hit to go against a defending land unit and the bombers are allowed to roll against defending land units because after all the defender is destroyed. BTW all those “spillover hits” are preemtive against the defender so he has to lose these units before they fire . I presume the defender will soon withdraw from combat.

although I think not too hard to reason why no parting shot

[Imperious Leader]

Blitzkrieg sought decisive actions at all times. To this end, the theory of a schwerpunkt (focal point) developed; it was the point of maximum effort. Panzer and Luftwaffe forces were used only at this point of maximum effort whenever possible. By local success at the schwerpunkt, a small force achieved a breakthrough and gained advantages by fighting in the enemy’s rear. It is summarized by Guderian as “Nicht kleckern, klotzen!” (“Don’t tickle, smash!”)

To achieve a breakout, infantry or, less commonly, armored forces themselves (otherwise preserved for maneuver beyond) would attack the enemy’s defensive line, supported by artillery fire and aerial bombardment in order to create a breach in the enemy’s line which would pass the mobile forces in their entirety. The breaching force attacked to the flanks to increase security through distance. This point of breakout has been labeled a “hinge”, for from it motorized forces maneuvered forward and developed “leverage” against the defensive line’s forces.

[tekkyy]

Oh I duno about letting excess dogfighting hits go to bombing land units.
It make does sense when one side has like 10 FTR the other has 1 FTR.

But now we don’t model the sacking of some planes as to delay the bombing on their land units…maybe because of incoming air reinforcements, for the defender.

We are making air units more and more powerful.
It brings me again to think of ways of modelling anti-aircraft in every cycle of combat hehe.

[Imperious Leader]

During playtesting we found some holes in the ideas…

1. air units alone attacking ground units
   a- there has to be some limits:

in cities their is no automatic retreats so the problem was planes can totally destroy land units and as you know they cant fire back.
ideas:

1. allow air units just one round against land units hitting what they can
2. allow air units to attack, but if they want to stay more rounds then allow land units to be able to shoot at planes ( dont like this idea)
3. increase the AA rule to every round ( e.g. roll 1, then re roll roll 1 destroyed, roll 2-3 plane has to return to base)
4. increase AA rolls in every territory that contains enemy units ( part of intrinsic ability to fire at planes) … very token roll however.

All seperation of air and land worked very well i may add, people loved the boost idea of planes to tanks added with artillery to infantry…

one problem was how is it possible for air units to boost armor if they are in a dogfight?

1. this needs to be addressed so that planes while occupied cannot aid tanks in battle. this seems an easy fix

People liked how DAS works allows the defender to set up air units in special zones to aid either groups of land forces.

They really liked how we model subs… they can pass thru enemy ships and have to be " hog tied" like running pigs. this makes each player want to seperate his naval into smaller squadrons looking/hunting down subs and killing them.

Problems found: The ASW rolls are a bit overpowering.

1. ASW ships ( cruisers and destroyers ) get 2 rolls each… so say you get 3 destroyers going after 2 subs… that means you get 6 ASW rolls and say you got 4 scores ( one finds the sub and the other 3 are kills)… all the while subs get just one roll against these ships.

solutions:

1. change the esisting ASW rules… SO FIRST using the example you only have 3 locating rolls… followed by 3 possible hitting rolls at 2.
   in this way we seperate the looking around idea with the attack idea…

that makes things easier.

they also liked the idea that we no longer allow tanks to hide behind infantry and infantry now hids behind tanks…

all tank hits go against tanks was a hit, because it meant you needed to buy lots of tanks to keep up with the enemy or you would lose what you had. THe old idea of having a force of infantry attacking with tanks was still in effect because hits needed to be allocated so in a way the old strategy works… just that tank battles are really modeled like the war. Preemtive artilley worked good too and made them have value.

we started one “trick” which was to land say 4 infantry and get a free BB shot and also attack with our entire air force… basically leeching off the enemies infantry…

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

in cities their is no automatic retreats so the problem was planes can totally destroy land units and as you know they cant fire back.

eh, this isn’t really about automatic retreats I think
we are gonna have defender retreat anyway

3. increase the AA rule to every round ( e.g. roll 1, then re roll roll 1 destroyed, roll 2-3 plane has to return to base)

good to see you now want this direction now
I mean AA firing in opening fire only is unfair
giving too many AA hits for very short battles

so we’ll tune the rates
your d1 + d1 = 2.8% , thats sounds ok

one problem was how is it possible for air units to boost armor if they are in a dogfight?

lol looking back I actually thought you meant only bombing air units boost armor

they can pass thru enemy ships

SS can already decide if they want to engage enemy, provided no DD
but I think DD should also be able to do the same
if the DD don’t wanna engage, the enemy SS can pass thru

in fact, before sonar technology upgrade, I think DDs shouldn’t be able to stop SS from passing thru
its many many miles of ocean in a SZ

Problems found: The ASW rolls are a bit overpowering.

hehe I think I expected this

in this way we seperate the looking around idea with the attack idea….

you should have knew better :-P
we have this in antiaircraft already

[Imperious Leader]

in cities their is no automatic retreats so the problem was planes can totally destroy land units and as you know they cant fire back.

eh, this isn’t really about automatic retreats I think
we are gonna have defender retreat anyway

++++++OK i should rephrase it… The defender has the option of retreating on automatic retreats if he is in a city ( VC). of course after a round he can retreat as well.

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3) increase the AA rule to every round ( e.g. roll 1, then re roll roll 1 destroyed, roll 2-3 plane has to return to base)

good to see you now want this direction now
I mean AA firing in opening fire only is unfair
giving too many AA hits for very short battles

Yes right… playtesting bears out experience and what seems to work. it should be each round but still harder to kill planes than 1 out of 6… thats crazy.

so we’ll tune the rates
your d1 + d1 = 2.8% , thats sounds ok

++++ ok so you roll a 1 , then you get to roll another die… if you get a 1 its gone, 2-3 or even just 2 then its out of the battle ( flies back to base)

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one problem was how is it possible for air units to boost armor if they are in a dogfight?
lol looking back I actually thought you meant only bombing air units boost armor

++++ no bombers have nothing to do with this … they have other values… only fighters and a new “dive- bomber” unit could have such a boost for armor.

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they can pass thru enemy ships
SS can already decide if they want to engage enemy, provided no DD
but I think DD should also be able to do the same
if the DD don’t wanna engage, the enemy SS can pass thru

+++++ thats allready accounted for except subs can go “on- station” and declare the intention to engage the enemy ships hereby stopping the movement of your ships ( note: sub stall debate issues)… however i feel that if the subs are sunk within one round then naval forces should be allowed to continue movement up to full movement.

in fact, before sonar technology upgrade, I think DDs shouldn’t be able to stop SS from passing thru
its many many miles of ocean in a SZ

it may work… but it gives too much benefits to DD… the great idea of subs is their ability to sneak under ships undetected. we should give them this ability unmolested. perhaps we can have something where after a certain point in time any sub that moves thru occupied zones can be intercepted… but sufficient tech has to come first. I see the possibility of say placing a plane in a sea zone as some form of CAP and from this it watches the ocean zone and gets to roll as subs pass thru.

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Problems found: The ASW rolls are a bit overpowering.
hehe I think I expected this

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in this way we separate the looking around idea with the attack idea…
you should have knew better
we have this in antiaircraft already

++++ yes now its seperate so you roll 2 to look ( changing with tech)
and 2 to hit. each portion done seperate.

[tekkyy]

OK i should rephrase it… The defender has the option of retreating on automatic retreats if he is in a city ( VC). of course after a round he can retreat as well.

I’ll have to look back. Maybe you need a table showing all the cases of automatic retreat.
One table showing values
One table showing if it happens (attacking, defending, land, air, sea…)

++++ ok so you roll a 1 , then you get to roll another die… if you get a 1 its gone, 2-3 or even just 2 then its out of the battle ( flies back to base)

Yes. Specifically a search roll detecting on 1.  Then an attack roll hitting on 1, sending enemy air home on 2.

no bombers have nothing to do with this … they have other values… only fighters and a new “dive- bomber” unit could have such a boost for armor.

Yep. Bombers don’t boost armor…

thats allready accounted for except subs can go “on- station” and declare the intention to engage the enemy ships hereby stopping the movement of your ships

Thats allready accounted for? really?
I know SS can choose to engage passing enemy ships or not.
I am saying DD can choose to engage passing enemy submarines or not.

And the funny situatiion because submarines can’t hurt submarines, if when 1 US DD + 1 US SS tries to move pass 1 Jap SS…if the Jap SS decides to engage, should the US SS do allowed to choose between 1. engaging the Jap SS alongside the US DD or 2. move on?

in fact, before sonar technology upgrade, I think DDs shouldn’t be able to stop SS from passing thru
its many many miles of ocean in a SZ

it may work… but it gives too much benefits to DD… the great idea of subs is their ability to sneak under ships undetected. we should give them this ability unmolested. perhaps we can have something where after a certain point in time any sub that moves thru occupied zones can be intercepted… but sufficient tech has to come first.

But now we are giving sonar to BB CV and TR…is that accurate?

yes now its seperate so you roll 2 to look ( changing with tech)
and 2 to hit. each portion done seperate.

and its the same as antiaircraft where you can share target information right?

[Imperious Leader]

And the funny situatiion because submarines can’t hurt submarines, if when 1 US DD + 1 US SS tries to move pass 1 Jap SS…if the Jap SS decides to engage, should the US SS do allowed to choose between 1. engaging the Jap SS alongside the US DD or 2. move on?

++++++no the US ss has no business in combat… its ignored. only the us DD can be involved in combat as a combatant or a causaulty.

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in fact, before sonar technology upgrade, I think DDs shouldn’t be able to stop SS from passing thru
its many many miles of ocean in a SZ

it may work… but it gives too much benefits to DD… the great idea of subs is their ability to sneak under ships undetected. we should give them this ability unmolested. perhaps we can have something where after a certain point in time any sub that moves thru occupied zones can be intercepted… but sufficient tech has to come first.

But now we are giving sonar to BB CV and TR…is that accurate?

++++++ no they done have ASW capabilities… however if they travel in a group of DD and CA and become incolved with combat… and if the DD and CA sucessfully locate the SS… then the BB only should have the same capabilities to HIT the SS at a 2 just like the others ships ( not the CV or TR)

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yes now its seperate so you roll 2 to look ( changing with tech)
and 2 to hit. each portion done seperate.

and its the same as antiaircraft where you can share target information right?

++++ yes but thats a 1… its nice that the rule found its mate!

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

no the US ss has no business in combat… its ignored. only the us DD can be involved in combat as a combatant or a causaulty.

How much information should the inactive player know before deciding whether to engage?
Like if it seems there’ll be multiple fleets going through the area…

Does the active player need to declare all combat moves first?
Like we could end up with surface ships passing through a combat zone…

however if they travel in a group of DD and CA and become incolved with combat… and if the DD and CA sucessfully locate the SS… then the BB only should have the same capabilities to HIT the SS at a 2 just like the others ships ( not the CV or TR)

oh BB can hit submarines now? is that accurate? I thought they are fat and slow.

[tekkyy]

Should targets be selected for all selective attacks in a particular step of a combat cycle before rolls?
We have selective attacks for AA rolls and ASW rolls.

Of course for ASW rolls it hardly matters. Its all submarines.

[Imperious Leader]

no the US ss has no business in combat… its ignored. only the us DD can be involved in combat as a combatant or a causaulty.
How much information should the inactive player know before deciding whether to engage?
Like if it seems there’ll be multiple fleets going through the area…

Does the active player need to declare all combat moves first?
Like we could end up with surface ships passing through a combat zone…

+++++++++++NO not quite… the active player moves his naval ships into and thru submarine occupied zones… it is the passive players job to declare his sub is “on station” and will engage your enemy ships. If your ships can elininate the sub in one round, or the sub desides to retreat or submerge… THEN and only then can your ships pass thru into other sea zones. So its up to the passive player to decide. Of course if your ships basically ended combat in a zone with the intention of fighting subs then they just do that and not continue movement.

with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

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however if they travel in a group of DD and CA and become incolved with combat… and if the DD and CA sucessfully locate the SS… then the BB only should have the same capabilities to HIT the SS at a 2 just like the others ships ( not the CV or TR)

oh BB can hit submarines now? is that accurate? I thought they are fat and slow.

+++++see answer above. what you think about it?

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

NO not quite… the active player moves his naval ships into and thru submarine occupied zones… it is the passive players job to declare his sub is “on station” and will engage your enemy ships. If your ships can elininate the sub in one round, or the sub desides to retreat or submerge… THEN and only then can your ships pass thru into other sea zones. So its up to the passive player to decide. Of course if your ships basically ended combat in a zone with the intention of fighting subs then they just do that and not continue movement.

Oh yeah thats right. I was getting confused.
I was thinking the SS can decide not to fight the first fleet and fight a later fleet. It can’t do that.

with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

This comes back to the whole model of ASW and how it shall hit into the combat cycle.
If a submarine fires and retreats back to its friendly fleet….even fast ships like enemy destroyers (let alone slow ships like Battleships) would have difficulty chasing the sumbarine with all these actions happening on the surface.
Also the fighters ans bombers role in ASW. They have a mission on their own dogfighting or targetting surface ships…
Search rolls are not too bad, the destroyers can just have its sonar on but to destroy a submarine you devert attention.

ASW selective attack playtesting
We said it’ll be like AA rules. The targetting and stuff.
I just wanna confirm.

declare all search targets before any of the search rolls? declare all attack targets before any of the attack rolls right?

This is particular important for attack rolls. Realistically you would spread the detected submarine targets among your forces.

eg. 2 submarines detected
put 2 destroyers on submarine A, 2 destroyers on submarine B
If you happen to be low on luck with the first two destroyers, and very lucky with the last two destroyers…you can’t roll over the hits right?

[Imperious Leader]

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with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

This comes back to the whole model of ASW and how it shall hit into the combat cycle.
If a submarine fires and retreats back to its friendly fleet….even fast ships like enemy destroyers (let alone slow ships like Battleships) would have difficulty chasing the sumbarine with all these actions happening on the surface.
Also the fighters ans bombers role in ASW. They have a mission on their own dogfighting or targetting surface ships…
Search rolls are not too bad, the destroyers can just have its sonar on but to destroy a submarine you devert attention.

++++++ Submarines travel at about 10 knots underwater and thats rounding up… I don’t like any idea where subs can just strike at destroyers or cruisers and get nothing possible going against them… Of course if they attack a lone carrier ,transport, or battleship those units can be sunk and not fire back… if they choose to remain they will just continue to be hit untill they are all sunk… The only remedy is cruisers and destroyers and latter on planes.

ASW selective attack playtesting
We said it’ll be like AA rules. The targetting and stuff.
I just wanna confirm.

declare all search targets before any of the search rolls? declare all attack targets before any of the attack rolls right?

The player who is being attacked allocates any cruisers and destroyers to “screen” out any potential ships from sub attacks. Now each ship is either paired with a screening ship or left “en prise” for what comes next. The owner of the subs now decides which ships he will gang up on or distribute his forces as he chooses.This is redone every turn in the same manner untill one side is destroyed, retreats of the subs submerge.

This is particular important for attack rolls. Realistically you would spread the detected submarine targets among your forces.

eg. 2 submarines detected
put 2 destroyers on submarine A, 2 destroyers on submarine B
If you happen to be low on luck with the first two destroyers, and very lucky with the last two destroyers…you can’t roll over the hits right?

++++ if say 3 subs are paired on one ship and they all hit…consequently the ship sinks additional hits go against any ship that was screened out or are wasted… they cant go against other pairings of ships.