Phase two ideas template: land and naval combat


  • @Imperious:

    no the US ss has no business in combat… its ignored. only the us DD can be involved in combat as a combatant or a causaulty.

    How much information should the inactive player know before deciding whether to engage?
    Like if it seems there’ll be multiple fleets going through the area…

    Does the active player need to declare all combat moves first?
    Like we could end up with surface ships passing through a combat zone…

    however if they travel in a group of DD and CA and become incolved with combat… and if the DD and CA sucessfully locate the SS… then the BB only should have the same capabilities to HIT the SS at a 2 just like the others ships ( not the CV or TR)

    oh BB can hit submarines now? is that accurate? I thought they are fat and slow.


  • Should targets be selected for all selective attacks in a particular step of a combat cycle before rolls?
    We have selective attacks for AA rolls and ASW rolls.

    Of course for ASW rolls it hardly matters. Its all submarines.


  • no the US ss has no business in combat… its ignored. only the us DD can be involved in combat as a combatant or a causaulty.
    How much information should the inactive player know before deciding whether to engage?
    Like if it seems there’ll be multiple fleets going through the area…

    Does the active player need to declare all combat moves first?
    Like we could end up with surface ships passing through a combat zone…

    +++++++++++NO not quite… the active player moves his naval ships into and thru submarine occupied zones… it is the passive players job to declare his sub is “on station” and will engage your enemy ships. If your ships can elininate the sub in one round, or the sub desides to retreat or submerge… THEN and only then can your ships pass thru into other sea zones. So its up to the passive player to decide. Of course if your ships basically ended combat in a zone with the intention of fighting subs then they just do that and not continue movement.

    with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

    Quote
    however if they travel in a group of DD and CA and become incolved with combat… and if the DD and CA sucessfully locate the SS… then the BB only should have the same capabilities to HIT the SS at a 2 just like the others ships ( not the CV or TR)

    oh BB can hit submarines now? is that accurate? I thought they are fat and slow.

    +++++see answer above. what you think about it?


  • @Imperious:

    NO not quite… the active player moves his naval ships into and thru submarine occupied zones… it is the passive players job to declare his sub is “on station” and will engage your enemy ships. If your ships can elininate the sub in one round, or the sub desides to retreat or submerge… THEN and only then can your ships pass thru into other sea zones. So its up to the passive player to decide. Of course if your ships basically ended combat in a zone with the intention of fighting subs then they just do that and not continue movement.

    Oh yeah thats right. I was getting confused.
    I was thinking the SS can decide not to fight the first fleet and fight a later fleet. It can’t do that.

    with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

    This comes back to the whole model of ASW and how it shall hit into the combat cycle.
    If a submarine fires and retreats back to its friendly fleet….even fast ships like enemy destroyers (let alone slow ships like Battleships) would have difficulty chasing the sumbarine with all these actions happening on the surface.
    Also the fighters ans bombers role in ASW. They have a mission on their own dogfighting or targetting surface ships…
    Search rolls are not too bad, the destroyers can just have its sonar on but to destroy a submarine you devert attention.

    ASW selective attack playtesting
    We said it’ll be like AA rules. The targetting and stuff.
    I just wanna confirm.

    declare all search targets before any of the search rolls? declare all attack targets before any of the attack rolls right?

    This is particular important for attack rolls. Realistically you would spread the detected submarine targets among your forces.

    eg. 2 submarines detected
    put 2 destroyers on submarine A, 2 destroyers on submarine B
    If you happen to be low on luck with the first two destroyers, and very lucky with the last two destroyers…you can’t roll over the hits right?


  • Quote
    with BB they dont look (search) for subs because they are very slow and are not truely suited for ASW, however, if they are with a CA or DD they too can attempt to fire at subs again hitting on a 2 or less. This seems fair or the BB will be somewhat marginalized as a buy.

    This comes back to the whole model of ASW and how it shall hit into the combat cycle.
    If a submarine fires and retreats back to its friendly fleet….even fast ships like enemy destroyers (let alone slow ships like Battleships) would have difficulty chasing the sumbarine with all these actions happening on the surface.
    Also the fighters ans bombers role in ASW. They have a mission on their own dogfighting or targetting surface ships…
    Search rolls are not too bad, the destroyers can just have its sonar on but to destroy a submarine you devert attention.

    ++++++ Submarines travel at about 10 knots underwater and thats rounding up… I don’t like any idea where subs can just strike at destroyers or cruisers and get nothing possible going against them… Of course if they attack a lone carrier ,transport, or battleship those units can be sunk and not fire back… if they choose to remain they will just continue to be hit untill they are all sunk… The only remedy is cruisers and destroyers and latter on planes.

    ASW selective attack playtesting
    We said it’ll be like AA rules. The targetting and stuff.
    I just wanna confirm.

    declare all search targets before any of the search rolls? declare all attack targets before any of the attack rolls right?

    The player who is being attacked allocates any cruisers and destroyers to “screen” out any potential ships from sub attacks. Now each ship is either paired with a screening ship or left “en prise” for what comes next. The owner of the subs now decides which ships he will gang up on or distribute his forces as he chooses.This is redone every turn in the same manner untill one side is destroyed, retreats of the subs submerge.

    This is particular important for attack rolls. Realistically you would spread the detected submarine targets among your forces.

    eg. 2 submarines detected
    put 2 destroyers on submarine A, 2 destroyers on submarine B
    If you happen to be low on luck with the first two destroyers, and very lucky with the last two destroyers…you can’t roll over the hits right?

    ++++ if say 3 subs are paired on one ship and they all hit…consequently the ship sinks additional hits go against any ship that was screened out or are wasted… they cant go against other pairings of ships.


  • @Imperious:

    Submarines travel at about 10 knots underwater and thats rounding up…

    Oh yeah. I forgot sumbarines are even slower than slow ships.
    But if they are travelling slowly underwater, we let battleships shoot at them and kill effectively anyway?

    Anyway your answer was indirect.
    Back to the question of how ASW fit into the combat cycle.

    Imagine 3 DD + 3 SS attack 3 DD. The defending DDs gets to perform more than the attacking DDs. Thats what I am getting at. Maybe DDs need to fight with -1 modifiers if it chooses perform ASW rolls. Screening however is free.

    Now each ship is either paired with a screening ship or left “en prise” for what comes next.

    Actually I think each DD/CA can screen one ship. But each surface ship can be screened by multiple DD/CA.
    Like a fleet of 3 DD + 1 CV…all DDs can protect the CV.

    if say 3 subs are paired on one ship and they all hit…consequently the ship sinks additional hits go against any ship that was screened out or are wasted… they cant go against other pairings of ships.

    Ok that I was expecting.
    We’ll reword the whole screening thing clearly later.


  • Imagine 3 DD + 3 SS attack 3 DD. The defending DDs gets to perform more than the attacking DDs. Thats what I am getting at. Maybe DDs need to fight with -1 modifiers if it chooses perform ASW rolls. Screening however is free.

    ++++++ OK in this example the subs and destroyers are attacking seperatly. The DD fire first and defending DD fire back… then you remove loses. Then the subs go in a strike ( not premtively)

    Quote
    Now each ship is either paired with a screening ship or left “en prise” for what comes next.
    Actually I think each DD/CA can screen one ship. But each surface ship can be screened by multiple DD/CA.
    Like a fleet of 3 DD + 1 CV…all DDs can protect the CV.

    ++++ that not anything different from these rules. Of course if you have 3 DD they all can screen and the sub has to cut into 3 DD before its gonna get a shot at the CV.

    Quote
    if say 3 subs are paired on one ship and they all hit…consequently the ship sinks additional hits go against any ship that was screened out or are wasted… they cant go against other pairings of ships.
    Ok that I was expecting.
    We’ll reword the whole screening thing clearly later.

    +++ ok


  • @Imperious:

    ++++++ OK in this example the subs and destroyers are attacking seperatly. The DD fire first and defending DD fire back… then you remove loses. Then the subs go in a strike ( not premtively)

    Firstly the subs don’t fire preemptively anymore? So instead of OOB’s rule of submarines still fire preemptively but casualities still get to shoot back because of destroyer presence….you changed it to submarines now fire after main firing cycle?

    Secondly, I was talking about realism not how it works in the proposed rule. Surely the defending destroyers have more to worry about than the attacking destroyers and can’t fight as well.


  • Firstly the subs don’t fire preemptively anymore? So instead of OOB’s rule of submarines still fire preemptively but casualities still get to shoot back because of destroyer presence….you changed it to submarines now fire after main firing cycle?

    ++++ subs only fire preemtive when a ship other than a DD or CA ( and sub) is not present as they have no ASW capability. this has not changed. In this case if you have a CA or DD then they fire back.

    Secondly, I was talking about realism not how it works in the proposed rule. Surely the defending destroyers have more to worry about than the attacking destroyers and can’t fight as well.

    +++ what would be better?


  • @Imperious:

    subs only fire preemtive when a ship other than a DD or CA ( and sub) is not present as they have no ASW capability. this has not changed. In this case if you have a CA or DD then they fire back.

    Thats not my interpertation of the OOB.
    I think SS always fire in opening-fire. Presence of DD only allows your casualties to stay and be removed later rather than in opening-fire.

    Secondly, I was talking about realism not how it works in the proposed rule. Surely the defending destroyers have more to worry about than the attacking destroyers and can’t fight as well.
    +++ what would be better?

    My quick solution, pulled out of thin air, is a -1 modifer for DDs wishing to perform ASW rolls. Screening, a relative passive job, however does not cause -1 modifier.
    FTR and BMB could also say get -1 modifier for wishing to perform ASW rolls.

    Its already generous when you think about it.

    If not then when 1 DD + 1 SS attacks 1 DD….the defending DD would basically get to shoot twice while the attacking ships shoot once each. A bit strange.

    1 DD provides early warning against submarine attack for whole fleet so casualties are not removed in opening-fire.
    Is that realistic?

    Air supremacy
    When only one side has air units, those air units fire preemptively.
              Land Combat                   Naval Combat
    FTR    opening-fire, selective?    opening-fire, selective?
    BMR   opening-fire?                   opening-fire?

    What about hit allocations?

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