Not a bad idea. I don’t play much Anniversary Edition but this makes me want to bust it out.
Optional Naval Rules
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For use with Axis & Allies Revised Edition. These rules are designed to capture the elements of Historical Accuracy, Strategy Enhancment and Play Balance. By B. Andersson, Game Master
Fast Carriers
Description: Speedy ships with landing decks from which fighters can take off and land.
(This is a revised rule for aircraft carriers only, not a new unit)
Cost: 16
Attack: 1
Defense: 3
Move: 3Special Abilities
Support Destroyers: When a destroyer move along with an aircraft carrier, the destroyer’s movement is increased to 3. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The destroyer and the aircraft carrier unit must leave from and end up in the same sea zone.Carry Fighters: Just like the box rules.
Fighter Defense: Just like the box rules.
Cruisers
Description: Multipurpose ships that can fire on incoming enemy planes and conduct shore bombardment.
Setup: Japan and USA each receive one cruiser unit for free, during the first round only. These free cruiser units are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.
(One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)
Cost: 12
Attack: 3
Defense: 3 (Antiaircraft fire)
Move: 3Special Abilities
Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your cruisers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each cruiser fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A cruiser cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.
Destroyers
Description: Small, fast warships that hunt submarines.
(This is a revised rule for destroyers only, not a new unit)
Cost: 10
Attack: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
Defense: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
Move: 2 (3 when supported by a carrier)Special Abilities
Supported by Carriers: When a destroyer move along with an aircraft carrier, the destroyer’s movement is increased to 3. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The destroyer and the aircraft carrier unit must leave from and end up in the same sea zone.Submarine Disruption: A destroyer cancels the special abilities of submarines. Enemy submarines cannot move freely through a sea zone containing your destroyer. If you have destroyers in a combat involing enemy submarines, they attack and defend on a 3. Any casualties of enemy submarines can return fire. Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.
Battleships
Description: Powerful and nearly indestructible monarchs of the sea.
(This is a revised rule for battleships only, not a new unit)
Cost: 20
Attack: 4
Defense: 4
Move: 2Special Abilities
Two Hits to destroy: Just like the box rules.Shore Bombardment: Just like the box rules.
Revised Weapons Developments
3. Super Submarines
Your submarines are now super submarines. They attack and defend on a 3 and may not be attacked by enemy aircraft when alone or in company with other submarines only, unless an enemy destroyer is present.5. Heavy Artillery (replace Combined Bombardment)
Your artillery are now heavy artillery. They attack on a 3.Air Supremacy
Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter.
Convoy Raids
The U.K, U.S. and Japanese palyers are susceptible to suply line interdiction. This rule imply that enemy submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink†IPCs. On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese palyers collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turn’s conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containting the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).
Placement of New Naval Units
Place naval units only in sea zones adjacent to territories containing eligible industrial complexes. New naval units can enter play even in a hostile sea zone. No combat occurs because the conduct combat phase is over. Newly built fighters can be placed into territories containing an industrial complex controlled by your power from the start of your turn, or they may be placed on an aircraft carrier owned by your power in a seazone adjacent to a territory with such an industrial complex. The aircraft carrier may be an existing one or it may be a newly built carrier. You may not place a new fighter on a carrier owned by a friendly power.
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ON REALISM
The rise of air power during World War II dramatically changed the nature of naval combat. Even the fastest cruisers could not outrun an airplane, which were increasingly able to attack at longer distances over the ocean. This change led to the end of independent operations by single ships or very small task groups, and for the second half of the 20th century naval operations were based around very large fleets able to fend off all but the largest air attacks. This has led most navies to change to fleets designed around ships dedicated to a single role, anti-submarine or anti-aircraft typically, and the large “generalist” ship has disappeared from most forces.
The Naval Units in WWII
The new cruiser unit represents an antiaircraft cruiser able to lay a deadly fire on incoming enemy planes. She had a weight of about 6000 tons, with a main armament of about 16 dual-purpose guns (both air and surface attack) around 5 inches. The cruisers could steam at around 35 knots. More cruisers were built by the major naval powers than any other naval unit, for not only could she support the battle fleet (fast carriers), but she were less expensive to construct.
A typical destroyer weighted about 3000 tons, with about 6 guns around 5 inches and torpedoe tubes. She was the fastest ship in the fleet, up to 40 knots. Her weak point is the range. Whereas a battleship or a cruiser can sail 10 000 miles upward, the destroyer can hardly put more than 1000 or 2000 miles, a couple of days of sailing. She required support ships, such as fleet tankers or bigger ships (carriers, battleships) that gave away part of their fuel to the guzzling destroyers. Hence the destroyers of WWII were not suitable for independant long-rang operations (reflected by the special ability of Cariers to support Destroyers).
A typical submarine in World War II was a boat of 1500 tons displacement and was armed with one 3 inches gun and 10 21-inches torpedo tubes. She ran at a speed of up to 17 knots while surfaced and at a speed of up to 8 knots while submerged. The Germans later developed the high-speed submarine in the Types XXI and XXIII. The former had a 16-kt submerged speed, under water control and advanced torpoes (the Zaunkönig acoustic torpedo, tuned to home in on the the enemys fast running propellers). These submarines are reflected in the revised Super Submarines technology.
Between 1939 and 1945, a battleships weighted from 30 000 tons to 70 000 tons. She carried about 10 guns from 11 inches (German Scharnhorst) up to 18 inches (Japanese Yamato). She ran at a speed of around 20 knots. Until World War II, speed was not a major requirement for battleships. The other ships had to adapt to the battleship, not the other way round. The rise of the aircraft carriers changed all that.
Although the battleships themselves do not launch torpedoes, they must protect themselves from them. For that reason, a second hull was built around the first to make the torpedo explode before reaching the vital parts of the ships (reflected by battleships special ability of Two Hits to Destroy).
The fleet carriers were speedy ships (around 30 knots) and weighted from 20 000 to 30 000 tons, carried 50 to 100 planes on board. The largest aircraft carrier of the war was the Japanese Shinano with no less than 70 000 tons. Shinano was a slow carrier since she was build on the Yamato class (battleship) hull to be used for repair and resupply ship to front-line carriers.
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ON PLAY BALANCE
A destoyer (DD) worth 8 IPCs, attack and defend on a 2, would brake the game balance. The reason is that any naval force of only destoyers, except for one cruiser (CO), would dominate all other combos in both defens and attack! That is why the cost for a destroyer is 10 IPCs.
Destroyers no longer dominate battleships, since a defending battleship is as good as an attacking destroyer! In precens of enemy submarines the destroyers defend and attack on a 3. That will make the destroyers dominate subs, but cruisers will dominate destroyers that in turn are dominated by subs! All naval units are still dominated by fighters, except for the new cruiser unit. A pack of cruisers defense is as good as an attacking flotilla of fighters (due to AA capability), but it’s attack is still not as good as an attacking flotilla of fighters or a pack of submarines. That is perfect game balance!
Subs cannot be considered as cannon fodder in an attack to the same extent as before. Another reason for this is that destoyers along with carriers and cruisers move 3 ses zones. Submarines are more likely to protect Battleships, but not against air! Since submarines cannot submerge while an enemy destroyer is present, it would be an easy target for a flotilla of fighters and a destroyer.
Battleships are now only good when one allready dominate the seas, to be used to soak up hits and conduct shore bombardment.
10 AC + 20 Ftr
Cost: 360
Att: 110+320 = 70
Def: 310+420 = 110
Hits = 3018 BB (20 IPCs/BB)
Cost: 360
Att: 184 = 72
Def: 182 = 72
Hits = 3636 Ftr
Cost: 360
Att: 336 = 108
Def: 436 = 144
Hits = 3636 DD (10 IPCs/DD)
Cost: 360
Att: 362 = 72
Def: 362 = 72
Hits = 3630 CO
Cost: 360
Att value: 303 = 90
Def value: 303 = 90 +AA
Hits = 3045 SS
Cost: 360
Att: 452 = 90
Def: 452 = 90
Hits = 45 -
ON STRATEGY
To be contiued! :D
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After a quick read i can say that they are really good! The game sidetracks the “Navy” and i feel that it allways take a back seat to land buys. The lowering of naval costs will influence buildup of naval forces and they will have more value to the game. The changes are not as much as i would like to see but are welcome as a good first step to solve the problem. I love the BB at 20! Thats makes nearly all the ships an equal choice based on price, value, utility (purpose).
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Mr Anderson,
You should write a book for all your house rules, I can help if you want to. The latest ideas of yours, Air Supremacy and now these naval rules are the best I have ever seen. And I would not be surprised if Larry and his fellows will use your rules in the next update. I have followed you since you started to write in this community (A&A.org) and have seen even Larry follow suit, your Super Submarines (Tech) and your Super Dreadnaughts (NA).
I must say that these new naval rules are beautiful, the math is perfect! I dont think that the all people in this community realise how good these naval rules of yours really are. Keep up with the work, I am one of your biggest fans. By the way do you know that someone under the name Dreadnought drop all your ideas at Larrys homepage.
/ :evil:
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Hi All
I’m new here but have been lurking for a bit I like the sound of Navel house rules and I will give them a go next game.
I have often thought that more navel units and abilities would bring more to the game.Cheers
Rob -
Hi All
I’m new here but have been lurking for a bit I like the sound of Navel house rules and I will give them a go next game.
I have often thought that more navel units and abilities would bring more to the game.Cheers
RobHi Rob,
Tell me how it all came out with the new naval rules of mine? By the way, what did you vote?
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If one just want to stick with the units in the box rules (no cruiser unit), this is my balanced suggestion. Keep all other units as is except for ACs, their movement is increased to 3 (fast carriers). More over one need to change the destroyer unit to become more desirable, and some how become a better piece of cannon fodder than subs.
Destroyers
Description: Small, fast warships that hunt submarines.
(This is a revised rule for destroyers only, not a new unit)
Cost: 10
Attack: 2
Defense: 3
Move: 2 (3 when supported by a carrier)Special Abilities
Supported by Carriers: When a destroyer move along with an aircraft carrier, the destroyer’s movement is increased to 3. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The destroyer and the aircraft carrier unit must leave from and end up in the same sea zone.Submarine Disruption: A destroyer cancels the special abilities of submarines. Enemy submarines cannot move freely through a sea zone containing your destroyer. If you have destroyers in a combat involving enemy submarines, they attack and defend on a 3. Any casualties of enemy submarines can return fire. Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.
Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your destroyers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each destroyer fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A destroyer cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.
This new statement for destroyers would make them more desirable than subs as cannon fodder for defense, but for naval attack subs would still be the better piece to buy! Still those destroyers are good for shore bombardment (island hopping) and fast. Well, one could also skip the fast carrier thing and just stick to the decreased cost and attack value, but keep the shore bombardment ability. Any suggestions or comments?
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The submarine and destroyer should be basically opposites with the same stats only, a sub has its free shot unless a destroyer is present.
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@Imperious:
The submarine and destroyer should be basically opposites with the same stats only, a sub has its free shot unless a destroyer is present.
The reason for a 2/3 DD is because you just dont want another piece to buy! And because of that 2/3 makes most sens since it is balanced and also give some historical accuracy as well. The balance thing is because now one want to buy DD for defens since it is better than SS. DDs are however not better than SS in naval attacks, but is good in attacks were one can use shore bombardment(island hopping). DDs In World War IIÂ were truly all-purpose ships, ready to fight off attacks from the air, the surface and under the surface. They handled a variety of duties such as picket ship, escorting larger ships and convoys, shore bombardment, rescuing pilots who were forced down at sea and even acting as mailman for the fleet. DDs were armed with dual-purpose guns (small - around 5 inches), torpedoes, depth charges and antiaircraft guns. This made them more of an defensive weapon, due to the fact range of the DDs armament compared to the gunnery of BBs. IMO only the Imperial Japanese Navy had DDs that could be said to be as good in attack as in defens due to excellent torpedoes and night combat tactics. The best shot for torpedoes is always as close as possible, and the best circumstances for close shots are at night. Small and inexpensive compared with the capital ships DDs were designed to protect. I think this 2/3 DD with shore bombardment actually will do better than bring in a new unit (cruiser), but I need to play test it. Would you like to do that as well?
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Hi Mr Anderson
We only used the cruiser,CV and Destroyer rules to start with.
The Rules worked fairly well but nobody bought battleships just Cruisers,Destroyers and CV
Maybe you could beef up the Battleship I’m only looking at it from a game balance point of view. I Know it was cheaper but the Anti aircraft fire for cruisers is great.
You can get an extra AA roll for Industrial bombing across the channel. Even the British fleet is less of a tempting tartget when a cruiser is around for the German Airforce.
We Didn’t get to finish the game as our Club shuts at 10pm so we had to pack up.
It helps the US even more against the Japs ( or it did in our game )
Also Destroyer defending on a 3 all the time I think would be better
Maybe you could give battleships 2 attack dice and keep them at 24 points with two hits but only 1 dice on a shore bombardment. haven’t tried this yet, but with the Cruiser units I think you need to do something different with the Battleships. It all seemed to favour the Allies more than the Axis.
Or maybe a split fire rule like.
1 Attack dice at 4
2 Attack dice at 3
3 Attack dice at 2
Just nominate at the start each round of combat. (just an idea might be a load of old rubbish)I don’t know much about the historical aspect of ship types but I’m not looking at it from that point of view.
I think the problem with having more units is the lack of difference between them because you are using a D6.
Cheers
Rob
Ps I didn’t vote intime but I would vote needed work. -
There is nothing wrong with the standard 3/3 destroyer, simply assume the piece to represent a small group consisting of cruisers and destroyers. And the battleship piece represents a small group of battleships and cruisers combined.
The cruisers optional anti-air gun rule is a good idea, but that depends if the amount of AA guns on a unit of cruisers is to match in the same volumne all the AA guns in one territory protecting numerous cities and factories, since you are limited to only one gun per province.
In short all of this depends on how many actual ships, infantry, tanks, artillery, etc… you think each piece represents. Everyone has different ideas on how many actual units consist of one game piece.
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Hi Mr Anderson
We only used the cruiser,CV and Destroyer rules to start with.
The Rules worked fairly well but nobody bought battleships just Cruisers,Destroyers and CV…
You didn’t buy subs? Why, they are the best cannon fodder one can get? You should try to use the Convoy Rule as well!
Maybe you could beef up the Battleship I’m only looking at it from a game balance point of view. I Know it was cheaper but the Anti aircraft fire for cruisers is great…
Hmmm… I find the same thing happening when I play tested these rules, no BBs! A quick fix would be an opening fire ability for BBs in conjunction with an inability to hit subs, meaning subs can never be hit by BBs. That is goody goody and the 24 IPC price for a BB would be acceptable.
I am right now trying to fish out the best ideas of mine. I would like you to try the following rules and let me know how it all came out. Thank you in advance of your reply.
Shore Bombardment
In an amphibious assault, your destroyers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each destroyer fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A destroyer cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault. In order to get a free shore shot one must land two land units for each shore shot, apply to both battleships and destroyers.Heavy Artillery (replace Combined Bombardment)
Your artillery are now heavy artillery. They attack on a 3.Convoy Raids
The U.K, U.S. and Japanese players are susceptible to supply line interdiction. This rule imply that enemy submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink†IPCs. On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turn’s conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containting the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).Air Supremacy
Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter. -
Submarines should never be cannon fodder. IN fact Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multy surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing thru the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. Thats why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. At your 3/3 values they are a better buy. The trick was to make all the ships equally important. The solution was to bring battleships in at 20 IPC, destroyers kept back at 2/2 costing 8 IPC and the new cruiser unit at 3/3 costing 14 IPC ( taking two hits to sink). You other people should playtest these values as i have and you will notice that all the naval units have equal values and equal justifications for buying them.
So again the values:
Battleship 4/4/2/cost 20 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 4)
Cruiser 3/3/3/cost 14 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 3)
Destroyer 2/2 2 cost 8 (takes one hit, shore bombard at 2)
Carrier 1/3/3/cost 14 ( takes one hit, carries two planes)In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot. So if you got to land 5 infantry in your 5th invasion of France in as many turns, you can only count on 2 ships supporting it. Their is nothing more unrealistic on this green earth as that stupid lame rule where you have 3 battleships supporting one infantry, killing 3 german infantry and retaking france 20 times in a game. That has to end and these rules end that crap. Each infantry unit equals a corps level organization which is basically 3-5 divisions or about 70,000 men… Their is no way any collection of warships of all the worlds navies could destroy that many human lives, allowing an unopposed invasion by a small force of soldiers with no equipment. An invasion was a major undertaking and not something to just “DO” every turn just to grap IPC’s
That brings up another problem…. Income should only be counted at the start of your turn… think about this concept! its your second stage into the advanced system of playing a better game.
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@Imperious:
Submarines should never be cannon fodder. IN fact Submarines should only participate in one round of combat and not engage in multy surface combat actions. Their was never any major naval actions where submarines were used in a major role in such combat. They are basically sinkers of commerce ships. They participated as advance screening for fleet movements to locate and possibly sink a few ships that were passing thru the area, but a sub travels at 7 knots underwater and a cruiser is at 34 knots and a battleship is 25-32 knots. Thats why the other chap in an earlier thread bought those destroyers and stopped buying battleships. At your 3/3 values they are a better buy. The trick was to make all the ships equally important. The solution was to bring battleships in at 20 IPC, destroyers kept back at 2/2 costing 8 IPC and the new cruiser unit at 3/3 costing 14 IPC ( taking two hits to sink). You other people should playtest these values as i have and you will notice that all the naval units have equal values and equal justifications for buying them.
So again the values:
Battleship 4/4/2/cost 20 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 4)
Cruiser 3/3/3/cost 14 (takes two hits, shore bombard at 3)
Destroyer 2/2 2 cost 8 (takes one hit, shore bombard at 2)
Carrier 1/3/3/cost 14 ( takes one hit, carries two planes)In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot. So if you got to land 5 infantry in your 5th invasion of France in as many turns, you can only count on 2 ships supporting it. Their is nothing more unrealistic on this green earth as that stupid lame rule where you have 3 battleships supporting one infantry, killing 3 german infantry and retaking france 20 times in a game. That has to end and these rules end that crap. Each infantry unit equals a corps level organization which is basically 3-5 divisions or about 70,000 men… Their is no way any collection of warships of all the worlds navies could destroy that many human lives, allowing an unopposed invasion by a small force of soldiers with no equipment. An invasion was a major undertaking and not something to just “DO” every turn just to grap IPC’s
That brings up another problem…. Income should only be counted at the start of your turn… think about this concept! its your second stage into the advanced system of playing a better game.
I agree upon the shore bombardment and like it a lot your way: “In order to get a free shore shot you must land 2 infantry for each shore shot”!
The fact that one get the IPCs in the end of each turn is because it favors offens, we dont wont a static game! How ever your opinion about is right from a logical point of view, but I think the game should favor attack (Axis) in the way it does! I need to think about more befor ethe last word is said! ;-) -
Under the cost basis of counting the money before you play your turn here are the advantages:
- you take territories you plan on holding… no more stupid quick steals of land for cash. That makes for a silly game rather than a positional one.
- It will end that endless mindless attacks on France et al.
- It makes each move more important to plan out because you are more concentrated on defending as well as attack.
- have to abort will finish latter…
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With Atlantic Wall and Fortress Europe advantages, Vichy France wont fall unless the allies bring in a huge amphibious force. This assumes of course that the Nazi player doesn’t leave the western front open, as they did in the real war when Hitler sent all his Panzer divisions crashing into Poland, then immediately rushed back to France. (No smart German player will leave a 6 IPC valued province ripe for picking)
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Yes thats correct, but any real invasion of France should be the real deal, and not so many “Dieppe” raids on Le harve, whehn the allies land it should be a thunderclap of force from the clouds. A stupid German player deserves to lose it if he goes cheap on it, and problably the is game is basically over anyway because that creates positional imbalances for a next few turns, which may lead to defeat.
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Hi Chaps
Just thought I would answer why I didn’t buy Subs
I was the UK and had a IC in India so I bought more tanks and fighters
Some players bought subs mainly Germany.I have another Idea for you.
IC Fighter defense rule.
If you have fighters on a province with an IC then they my participate in Navel defense on any adjacent sea zone.
What do you think.Cheers
Rob
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