13L G40 seththenewb(allies+10) vs MagicQ(axis)

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

You hope to roll in the forum. And I hope to play triplea dice unless I have to use forum dice. In this case, no forum dice is needed. Don’t you get it?

And LL re-roll is different. I am not sure about it. Let me think about it.

Why do I get the feeling that I’m talking to a wall here.  :lol:

What instance(s) would you roll on the forum?

Forget the rolls. Forget what happened. Forget the battle completely. Just wipe it from your memory for a little bit. It didn’t happen. It’s still Italy’s combat move and you’re now set to begin combat. Pretend Gamer ruling was to reroll the WHOLE battle from Rd1. Knowing now that subs illegally fire first despite my subs, do you get why it might be best to roll on the forum so you can roll the subs all together with the rest of your units? You don’t know what your subs will roll and you don’t know what your units will roll. I don’t know what will be rolled.

Are you prepared and willing to roll sub involved combat (we still both have massive fleets in the Pac with subs and destroyers) on the forum? Completely on the forum, no triplea. Maybe you don’t see the need to, but you OK with respecting my wishes as far as sub combat goes?

[seth4god]

Gamer, if you do stick to your decision. Are we talking about MagicQ losing the fighter that had to die because it’s landing spot was sunk in the battle or an additional unit?

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling.  I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal.  I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

When I said Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle, I meant the Italian player (MagicQ) would choose.  I was not aware that one of the units was going to splash anyway.  So I meant 1 more unit beyond that.

I stand by my ruling and I don’t see any bad precedent being set.  I suppose I need to explain it now.
I’m not a football rules expert, but I know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play when a touchdown is scored.  Sometimes they assess it on the ensuing kickoff.  AFAIK they do not call back 40 yard runs when there was an offensive penalty that had no effect on the play (runner was past the spot of the hold).  I may be wrong about holding, per se, like I said I’m not a football expert but I do know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play.  They don’t always bring the play back as if it never happened.

Anyway, I don’t think the battle should be re-rolled from round 2.  I also don’t think MagicQ should go scot free.  A slap on the wrist is more than nothing.
My TripleA issues document is not law.  It is a guide to players on how to follow the rule book when playing Triple A.
An over-arching principle of playing by forum is that whenever reasonably possible, you should stick with the dice that were thrown.  You should not be able to get a much better result in Z92 based on a rules technicality that in fact in hindsight made absolutely no difference.  Yes I know you’re offering LL re-roll, but that still greatly favors you.  You know that a LL result would be much better than the one you got.  I understand that you are very competitive.  That’s fine, but it has clouded your judgement.  I have no dog in this race, so it is easier for me to be objective.  You guys need a compromise that you can both agree is reasonable, and so I stand by my ruling which I really think is appropriate.

MagicQ must take off 1 additional unit that he wasn’t already going to lose.  So if he had a fighter that was going to splash anyway, then I think he should take one more off to pay for ignoring your wishes.

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

to pay for ignoring your wishes.

and the rules, which he (in his defense) did not clearly understand.

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:
and the rules, which he (in his defense) did not clearly understand.
What I mean is that I don’t think he realized why your request to roll on the forum had any merit, so he was not being belligerent by continuing.  Whether he asks you for a casualty choice at the right time had absolutely no effect in this situation, and that is the essence of MagicQ’s position, and I agree with it.  Now quit trying to get undiced, take off an extra unit and call it a compromise, and game on!  :-)

[boldfresh]

Yeah u got more important things to do, like G1!  I appreciate how competitve u r too seth, which is why its gonna be fun to pin my first loss on you (aside from xdap of course).

[MagicQ]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 8

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            1 cruiser moved from 97 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
                  Italians take Tobruk from British
            1 carrier moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            3 destroyers and 4 submarines moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
                  Italians take 97 Sea Zone from British
            2 fighters moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 cruiser moved from 94 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 93 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to 92 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Caucasus to 92 Sea Zone

Combat - Italians
            British scrambles 3 units out of Gibraltar to defend against the attack in 92 Sea Zone
            Battle in 92 Sea Zone
                Italians attack with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 3 fighters, 4 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber
                French defend with 1 infantry; British defend with 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British
                Italians win with 1 bomber, 1 cruiser, 2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 72
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
                Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Casualties for Italians: 1 carrier, 3 destroyers, 1 fighter and 4 submarines

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 fighter could not land in 92 Sea Zone and was removed
            1 bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to Southern France
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia
            1 artillery moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Northern Italy
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern Italy

Place Units - Italians
            1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 93 Sea Zone
            1 infantry placed in Northern Italy

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
            Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 25 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 30 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from 92 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling.  I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal.  I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

When I said Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle, I meant the Italian player (MagicQ) would choose.  I was not aware that one of the units was going to splash anyway.  So I meant 1 more unit beyond that.

I stand by my ruling and I don’t see any bad precedent being set.  I suppose I need to explain it now.
I’m not a football rules expert, but I know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play when a touchdown is scored.  Sometimes they assess it on the ensuing kickoff.  AFAIK they do not call back 40 yard runs when there was an offensive penalty that had no effect on the play (runner was past the spot of the hold).  I may be wrong about holding, per se, like I said I’m not a football expert but I do know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play.  They don’t always bring the play back as if it never happened.

Anyway, I don’t think the battle should be re-rolled from round 2.  I also don’t think MagicQ should go scot free.  A slap on the wrist is more than nothing.
My TripleA issues document is not law.  It is a guide to players on how to follow the rule book when playing Triple A.
An over-arching principle of playing by forum is that whenever reasonably possible, you should stick with the dice that were thrown.  You should not be able to get a much better result in Z92 based on a rules technicality that in fact in hindsight made absolutely no difference.  Yes I know you’re offering LL re-roll, but that still greatly favors you.  You know that a LL result would be much better than the one you got.  I understand that you are very competitive.  That’s fine, but it has clouded your judgement.  I have no dog in this race, so it is easier for me to be objective.  You guys need a compromise that you can both agree is reasonable, and so I stand by my ruling which I really think is appropriate.

MagicQ must take off 1 additional unit that he wasn’t already going to lose.  So if he had a fighter that was going to splash anyway, then I think he should take one more off to pay for ignoring your wishes.

Respect that! I removed 1 unit. Let’s rock and roll.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@MagicQ:

You hope to roll in the forum. And I hope to play triplea dice unless I have to use forum dice. In this case, no forum dice is needed. Don’t you get it?

And LL re-roll is different. I am not sure about it. Let me think about it.

Why do I get the feeling that I’m talking to a wall here.  :lol:

What instance(s) would you roll on the forum?

Forget the rolls. Forget what happened. Forget the battle completely. Just wipe it from your memory for a little bit. It didn’t happen. It’s still Italy’s combat move and you’re now set to begin combat. Pretend Gamer ruling was to reroll the WHOLE battle from Rd1. Knowing now that subs illegally fire first despite my subs, do you get why it might be best to roll on the forum so you can roll the subs all together with the rest of your units? You don’t know what your subs will roll and you don’t know what your units will roll. I don’t know what will be rolled.

Are you prepared and willing to roll sub involved combat (we still both have massive fleets in the Pac with subs and destroyers) on the forum? Completely on the forum, no triplea. Maybe you don’t see the need to, but you OK with respecting my wishes as far as sub combat goes?

I don’t know what the subs will roll. True. But I do know what is the right time to stop and ask for OOL. That’s enough from my point of view. I am not totally agree that you say the dice here could be illegal. Still, that’s debatable.

[MagicQ]

Completely on the forum, no triplea.

All battle involving subs? That will just waste a lot of time. I still stick to my original idea–- roll in the forum only when we have to.

[MagicQ]

Finish the game as much as we can within the software. That’s my point.

[gamerman01]

That’s fine, until the software makes you go against the rule book.  Seth’s a stickler for the rules, so it would be a good idea to roll on forum dice in certain sub situations (enemy destroyer present, etc etc)

It really doesn’t take much effort to do that.  What I do, is roll the forum dice and conduct the battle on the forum, and then edit remove the destroyed units for each side before clicking to roll the battle in Triple A.  This way, you can keep Triple A from rolling any dice which prevents accusations that you rolled in both places and chose the ones beneficial to you.

Anyway, just saying, MagicQ if you refuse to roll any forum dice the remainder of this game, you may have more issues with Seth, and he is technically correct.

[seth4god]

Yea, Gamer’s right if you refuse to roll sub combat on the forums then I will continue to protest each and every battle that you roll in triplea that has subs in it.

Gamer, since you are saying that I’m ‘technically correct’ (although apparently not correct enough to negate his illegal roll this past battle). What is your stance on further combat involving subs? We don’t know what the next combat will result in, so I’m not trying to avoid any dicing. But I did protest his rolling in triplea prior to seeing the results and that didn’t get me anywhere either . . . . :roll:

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

That’s fine, until the software makes you go against the rule book.� Seth’s a stickler for the rules, so it would be a good idea to roll on forum dice in certain sub situations (enemy destroyer present, etc etc)

It really doesn’t take much effort to do that.� What I do, is roll the forum dice and conduct the battle on the forum, and then edit remove the destroyed units for each side before clicking to roll the battle in Triple A.� This way, you can keep Triple A from rolling any dice which prevents accusations that you rolled in both places and chose the ones beneficial to you.

Anyway, just saying, MagicQ if you refuse to roll any forum dice the remainder of this game, you may have more issues with Seth, and he is technically correct.

I didn’t realize that Seth is such a serious player. It’s good to know that. Respect! No bad feeling at all.

[seth4god]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 8

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 harbour; Remaining resources: 4 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 artillery moved from New South Wales to 62 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 62 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Queensland to 54 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 54 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 42 Sea Zone to Java
            1 submarine moved from 33 Sea Zone to 42 Sea Zone
            1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine moved from 33 Sea Zone to 45 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 62 Sea Zone to 45 Sea Zone

Combat - ANZAC
            Battle in 42 Sea Zone
                ANZAC attack with 1 submarine and 1 transport
                Japanese defend with 1 transport
                ANZAC win with 1 submarine and 1 transport remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 transport
            Battle in Java
                ANZAC attack with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win with no units remaining. Battle score for attacker is -4
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 artillery and 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from New Guinea to Dutch New Guinea
            2 fighters moved from Caroline Islands to Dutch New Guinea

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 harbour placed in Dutch New Guinea

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 14 PUs total
            Objective ANZAC 2 Control Strategic Islands: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 19 PUs

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

That’s fine, until the software makes you go against the rule book.� Seth’s a stickler for the rules, so it would be a good idea to roll on forum dice in certain sub situations (enemy destroyer present, etc etc)

It really doesn’t take much effort to do that.� What I do, is roll the forum dice and conduct the battle on the forum, and then edit remove the destroyed units for each side before clicking to roll the battle in Triple A.� This way, you can keep Triple A from rolling any dice which prevents accusations that you rolled in both places and chose the ones beneficial to you.

Anyway, just saying, MagicQ if you refuse to roll any forum dice the remainder of this game, you may have more issues with Seth, and he is technically correct.

That’s a lot of extra work to do you know.  :roll:

[seth4god]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 8

Combat Move - French
            1 fighter moved from Eastern Persia to Egypt

Non Combat Move - French

Turn Complete - French

[gamerman01]

@seththenewb:

Gamer, since you are saying that I’m ‘technically correct’ (although apparently not correct enough to negate his illegal roll this past battle).

Right.  Case by case.  Facts and circumstances.

What is your stance on further combat involving subs?

Players are always supposed to follow the rulebook, so my stance is that a battle like this should have been rolled on the forum, and all battles like it should be.

We don’t know what the next combat will result in, so I’m not trying to avoid any dicing. But I did protest his rolling in triplea prior to seeing the results and that didn’t get me anywhere either . . . . :roll:

I don’t see a cruiser in Z92.  Do you?

I should have held you in contempt of court earlier today
I think a compromise was the way to go here.  And I’m not one of those guys who complains about sports analogies - I love them - but they sometimes don’t apply very well.
Now if you don’t stop questioning my call, in sports I would be able to eject you from the game.

[gamerman01]

@MagicQ:

@Gamerman01:

That’s fine, until the software makes you go against the rule book.� Seth’s a stickler for the rules, so it would be a good idea to roll on forum dice in certain sub situations (enemy destroyer present, etc etc)

It really doesn’t take much effort to do that.� What I do, is roll the forum dice and conduct the battle on the forum, and then edit remove the destroyed units for each side before clicking to roll the battle in Triple A.� This way, you can keep Triple A from rolling any dice which prevents accusations that you rolled in both places and chose the ones beneficial to you.

Anyway, just saying, MagicQ if you refuse to roll any forum dice the remainder of this game, you may have more issues with Seth, and he is technically correct.

That’s a lot of extra work to do you know.  :roll:

It’s a lot of extra work to explain all this stuff to you two!

Seriously, it took me longer to explain that and type it than it takes to actually do it.
Rolling on the forum and editing in Triple A should only take 60 seconds, max.  In a game where you should be spending hours and hours making decisions, 1 minute is nothing.

Cheers  :-)

[seth4god]

Triplea’s fine if it’s a single sub vs single ship with maybe some air thrown in on either side. But when there’s multiple ships on either side involved and at least 1 sub is present than it should be rolled on the forum. Unless it’s like say the entire IJN against a single sub. That really doesn’t happen all too often, so it’s not that much work.

If it is still too much work, I offer to give you the win. I’ll just walk away from this because it’s not worth the hassle and I’d prefer not to play against someone who doesn’t respect an opponent or the rules.