G1:J4

[Spendo02]

You’ve got two moves for Japan, possibly 3:

1. Take the DEI which effectively denies allied income and improves your own and puts you into a position to win the Pacific.

2. March across Russia and fly your aircraft on a suicide mission to soften Moscow or reinforce an advancing German army.  This gives up the Pacific win and takes a long time - the US will probably ignore most of the Pacific because its nothing more than an IPC sink for them unless Japan holds the DEI and threatens a pacific win as Japan cannot take Western US with only ships.

3. You could possibly try sailing Japan to Africa and take Cairo before the Allies can effectively reinforce it - but India would be keen on that likely mobilizing mech/Armor to march through persia and Iraq.  Without Minors to reinforce Japan and slow up India I’d expect you’d have to time it perfectly with the fall of Moscow.

Anything outside of that and you pretty much hand the Allies a significant advantage as the US puts all its income into the Atlantic and hurts German advances into Russia.

[BJCard]

Well, the point is that Japan isn’t worried about the DEI or India.  They are selling out to win on the Europe board.  The US can even take Tokyo- doesn’t matter if the Axis win in Europe.  The first two turns look like a J3/J4 India take, so India is likely buying a lot of Infantry- not going to help with Cairo.  I suppose ANZAC fighters sent to Java turn 1, then India turn 2 could make it to Cairo in time, and the UK could sell out to move all available forces to Cairo, but then that could open up India and perhaps London- the Axis could just shift strategy then.

If Germany buys a couple transports turn 1, the UK has to respect the sealion threat and buy troops in London round 1, so the earliest they could buy an IC in Cairo is round 2.  If they don’t do Taranto then they could potentially have enough units in Cairo to stop the 6 air, 2 BB, 2 CA, 10+ land unit Japanese attack; - Japan could take South Africa or Persia at this point, with reinforcements coming the next turn- could have as many as 16 land units to hit Cairo with on turn 6.  Maybe find a way to get more air in range?  May not be possible, but bombers may be able to get to Greece in time- if Japan needs them to be.

Yes, it may be ‘arrogant’ to assume Germany takes Moscow on turn 6, but it could be turn 7 or 8 if necessary.  Point is, if Germany/Italy and Japan are doing some strategic bombing in Moscow (when they can reach) and Japan is gobbling up Siberian territories, Russia will not have very much money to deal with.

I’d really like to hear some thoughts on what the Allies can do to stop this.  I dislike the move because in WWII, the Japanese would never do this- but technically it is allowed in the game.

[BJCard]

@Spendo02:

You’ve got two moves for Japan, possibly 3:

1. Take the DEI which effectively denies allied income and improves your own and puts you into a position to win the Pacific.

2. March across Russia and fly your aircraft on a suicide mission to soften Moscow or reinforce an advancing German army.  This gives up the Pacific win and takes a long time - the US will probably ignore most of the Pacific because its nothing more than an IPC sink for them unless Japan holds the DEI and threatens a pacific win as Japan cannot take Western US with only ships.

3. You could possibly try sailing Japan to Africa and take Cairo before the Allies can effectively reinforce it - but India would be keen on that likely mobilizing mech/Armor to march through persia and Iraq.  Without Minors to reinforce Japan and slow up India I’d expect you’d have to time it perfectly with the fall of Moscow.

Anything outside of that and you pretty much hand the Allies a significant advantage as the US puts all its income into the Atlantic and hurts German advances into Russia.

1. This is always an option- especially if Germany is having trouble in Russia- Japan can still win in the Pacific.
2. Didn’t think about a suicide mission-  good idea if Japan is selling out to win in Europe.  If the US isn’t at war until turn 4- it will be turn 5 (landing in Africa) or turn 6 (landing in Italy or France or Norway) before they can do anything- by then Germany could be in a position to take Moscow soon.
3. Depending on how easily Japan can take Cairo, they may be able to block Indian mobile units by landing troops in Persia/Iraq.  India will probably buy all Infantry (or mostly so) round 1 and 2 because Japan’s setup could look like a J3/J4 take of India.

[Eqqman]

I mentioned something similar a while back which was pooh-poohed for similar reasons: that trying to operate in this area sends Japan too far away from its power base.

The Naval Base is helpful J1 but probably not required.  Unless the Allies DoW on UK1 (unlikely but possible), you can move from Kwangsi to the SZ off Burma and leave your guys on the ships.  On J3 you move next to Calcutta and seize Ceylon for your landing strip for the Kwangsi air, leaving ships to guard against blockers that might try and stop the second wave of TTs that can come from Kwangsi.  Build the Air & Naval Base J3, do the Transport buy for sure J1 and J2 possibly more TTs with a blocker Destroyer to cover the US ships that are probably at Hawaii en route to Queensland.

On UK3 they will be forced to cover the Calcutta attack which should be threatened by the full Japanese Air Force plus possibly 6 loaded TTs if you made sure the second wave of TTs was un-blockable.  J4 you might have odds to hit both Calcutta and Persia at the same time depending on what the Allies did.  If you cancel the Calcutta attack, then you can still send the men from Ceylon into Persia or head them to Iraq/Cape Town.  You don’t need to leave the whole Japanese Navy there, just send the bare minimum to cover the TTs.  The Kwangsi forces then attack Calcutta or Malaya and the DEI if you cancel Calcutta.  I think you can do the Japan threatens the Mid-East plan with enough left over that Japan is still viable in the Pacific (or at least viable enough that the US is not doing all-Atlantic buys).

One quibble with BJ’s original write-up is saying that Germany clears out the British Navy G1.  With a G1 attack on Russia, I don’t think this is a possibility, unless you are willing to lose a lot of the advantage you get from the G1 attack.

I’m not sure what the Allied counters are for this aside from a UK1 DoW, which is so early that Japan can easily refocus its efforts without missing a beat.  You can just risk a Sea Lion and place the Egypt IC UK1 and skip Taranto.  Use the SZ98 fleet to sink the Malta DD and provide blockers so that Italy can’t reach the Eastern Med or Gibraltar on I1.  Use the TT in concert with the SZ98 air to wipe out the Italian stack at Tobruk.  With an IC and the pressure from Tobruk relieved, the UK can probably handle the 6 Japanese ground units and stop them from hitting Cairo, but if they land on Persia and turtle with an IC spamming 2 Infantry + Art every turn, they would be a major headache for the UK, especially if you’ve held Malaya and are Convoying away their money so they have no income.  But I’m not sure if the UK could effectively cover both Cape Town and Cairo from a Japanese attack coming out of Persia without really easing off on Italy.

[elevenjerk]

One quibble with BJ’s original write-up is saying that Germany clears out the British Navy G1.  With a G1 attack on Russia, I don’t think this is a possibility, unless you are willing to lose a lot of the advantage you get from the G1 attack.

This certainly spreads things thin.  I know I always leave the sz 110 in order to dominate the two main spots in Russia, IMO, Eastern Poland and Baltic States.  I always want as much left over in those two spots so that you hold one of them at least.  No matter what you take it back the next turn but I want Russia bringing almost everything they have in order to take one of those spots back.

[BJCard]

@Eggman:

I mentioned something similar a while back which was pooh-poohed for similar reasons: that trying to operate in this area sends Japan too far away from its power base.

The Naval Base is helpful J1 but probably not required.  Unless the Allies DoW on UK1 (unlikely but possible), you can move from Kwangsi to the SZ off Burma and leave your guys on the ships.  On J3 you move next to Calcutta and seize Ceylon for your landing strip for the Kwangsi air, leaving ships to guard against blockers that might try and stop the second wave of TTs that can come from Kwangsi.  Build the Air & Naval Base J3, do the Transport buy for sure J1 and J2 possibly more TTs with a blocker Destroyer to cover the US ships that are probably at Hawaii en route to Queensland.

On UK3 they will be forced to cover the Calcutta attack which should be threatened by the full Japanese Air Force plus possibly 6 loaded TTs if you made sure the second wave of TTs was un-blockable.  J4 you might have odds to hit both Calcutta and Persia at the same time depending on what the Allies did.  If you cancel the Calcutta attack, then you can still send the men from Ceylon into Persia or head them to Iraq/Cape Town.  You don’t need to leave the whole Japanese Navy there, just send the bare minimum to cover the TTs.  The Kwangsi forces then attack Calcutta or Malaya and the DEI if you cancel Calcutta.  I think you can do the Japan threatens the Mid-East plan with enough left over that Japan is still viable in the Pacific (or at least viable enough that the US is not doing all-Atlantic buys).

One quibble with BJ’s original write-up is saying that Germany clears out the British Navy G1.  With a G1 attack on Russia, I don’t think this is a possibility, unless you are willing to lose a lot of the advantage you get from the G1 attack.

I’m not sure what the Allied counters are for this aside from a UK1 DoW, which is so early that Japan can easily refocus its efforts without missing a beat.  You can just risk a Sea Lion and place the Egypt IC UK1 and skip Taranto.  Use the SZ98 fleet to sink the Malta DD and provide blockers so that Italy can’t reach the Eastern Med or Gibraltar on I1.  Use the TT in concert with the SZ98 air to wipe out the Italian stack at Tobruk.  With an IC and the pressure from Tobruk relieved, the UK can probably handle the 6 Japanese ground units and stop them from hitting Cairo, but if they land on Persia and turtle with an IC spamming 2 Infantry + Art every turn, they would be a major headache for the UK, especially if you’ve held Malaya and are Convoying away their money so they have no income.  But I’m not sure if the UK could effectively cover both Cape Town and Cairo from a Japanese attack coming out of Persia without really easing off on Italy.

Well, by ‘clear out the British navy’ I meant attacking as much as possible, - everyone has a different take on it. 
Additionally, the Allies would not know Japan’s plan until turn 3 at the earliest, because Japan doesn’t go to the Indian Ocean until turn 3. 
I would say to those that ‘poo-pooed’ you - Japan doesn’t care if Tokyo is lost- Technically they still win if the Axis win on the Atlantic side. 
Not sure where you are getting 6 Japanese ground units in Cairo- I’m thinking more like 12;  I will play around with it and post a triplea save to show what this is capable of.

[Eqqman]

@BJCard:

Not sure where you are getting 6 Japanese ground units in Cairo- I’m thinking more like 12;  I will play around with it and post a triplea save to show what this is capable of.

I’m giving a very conservative estimate based on what you are guaranteed to be able to deliver in 1 turn.  If you do the 3 TT buy J1 then you do have the second wave of TTs that could join the first in an attack on Cairo, but you are forced to delay your movements by 1 turn in order for that second wave to catch up.  For that reason I think it is likely better to save that J1 TT buy to attack Calcutta or DEI.  Japan is probably going to crumble too quickly if you literally try to send everything it has to Cairo.

Although I guess you could go 3 TT buy J1, Naval Base J2, then with a J3 DoW clean out all blockers and have 6 loaded TTs emptied into Ceylon.  A decent enough position if Allied moves cause you to cancel your plans.

[AK_Grown]

Can I ask exactly what type of people you guys play that these strategies are all working?  Are these online games or random board games or a constant group?

Turn 2:
Germany uses transports to take Leningrad;

How exactly?  The RUS CRS sitting in 114 means you can’t amphib.  Are you taking it out on G1?  What exactly are you taking it out with - and still taking out everything else (UK Navy)?  I may not have played as many games as some of you, but taking out the UK Navy in turn 1 requires ALL of my planes (to avoid scramble) or to make sure that it all dies.  If you are attacking the RUS CRS/SUB sitting there in G1 - is RUS not scrambling that fighter sitting there?  I just don’t see it happening…

edit:  Just thought of going around up top.

[elevenjerk]

Can I ask exactly what type of people you guys play that these strategies are all working?  Are these online games or random board games or a constant group?

I usually play with one other person but have played many game over the last 2 years.

How exactly?  The RUS CRS sitting in 114 means you can’t amphib.  Are you taking it out on G1?  What exactly are you taking it out with - and still taking out everything else (UK Navy)?  I may not have played as many games as some of you, but taking out the UK Navy in turn 1 requires ALL of my planes (to avoid scramble) or to make sure that it all dies.  If you are attacking the RUS CRS/SUB sitting there in G1 - is RUS not scrambling that fighter sitting there?  I just don’t see it happening…

Lately I have really liked the G1.  You can look up Young Grasshoppers G1 strategy for some insight.  It is really good.  I prefer to do it differently.  He likes to attack and then play the war of attrition if I remember correctly.  I like to attack and wipe out Russia as soon as possible.

The big difference between his G1 and mine is the attack of the Navy on sz 115.  I bring the Battleship, Cruiser, along with a couple airplanes.  If they scramble the 1 fighter you should still be able to win pretty easy.  If you have 2 @ 3 and 2 @ 4 with a hit on the battleship, Russia would be crazy to scramble.  The fighter is just too important.  That would only give them 1 @ 1, 1 @ 3, and 1 @ 4.  Not the odds I want as Russia.

As for the UK navy.  I only attack sz 111 with 2 subs, 3 fighters (1 from Norway, 2 from W Germany), 3 tacs (all from W Germany).

It is really quite effective.  I also take the transport to the battle with an Inf/Art from Germany to attack Baltic States.  This is in the hopes I don’t get diced in Baltic States and have a good number of units so Russia has to take most if not all available units to take it back.

With my group - if your whole JPN fleet is sitting near Cairo - it’ll be turtled and you WILL NOT take it.

Cairo is a whole different issue.  IMO, it really depends on the headway Germany is making in Russia.  The way BJCard described it sound like an all out, forfeit the Pacific, bull rush to Cairo to win on the europe side.  I prefer to have Japan do its work in the Pacific (Take DEI and other money territories), then move over to Calcutta.  If Calcutta is too packed with guys to take over easily, you can move over to sz 79.  From there you can attack all the middle east, 2 spots in Africa.  If Cairo is open take that on the next turn.  If not, cause they stacked a bunch of guys, take S Africa and use the MIC.  Like Eggman said, you only have to take enough Navy to protect the transports.

[AK_Grown]

As for the UK navy.  I only attack sz 111 with 2 subs, 3 fighters (1 from Norway, 2 from W Germany), 3 tacs (all from W Germany).

So 109 and 110 UK fleets still alive?  (I’m figuring 2 subs for 106 to get rid of Canada transport).  Do they get taken out by Italy when they all go to Gib?  If UK plays soft in the Med and just takes out the 96 ITL dest, that could be…

3 Crs, 1 dest, 1 loaded AC, 1 BS and 3 troops + AA sitting in Gib (or 4 troops).  If UK buys an AB and pops it in Gib - that’s another 2/3 scramble from fighters (starting and one from UK or 2).  Hmmm…to the battle calculator.

You can look up Young Grasshoppers G1 strategy for some insight.

I’m going to have to.  I’ve liked some of these strategies around here.

[elevenjerk]

So 109 and 110 UK fleets still alive?

Yes sir.  I take 2 subs to 106 and 1 to sz 91.  Hope to get lucky and take the Cruiser out with a first shot attack but make sure to take out the destroyer/transport and hopefully have a sub or 2 left to convoy on UK’s first turn.

Do they get taken out by Italy when they all go to Gib?

Only if they don’t plan accordingly

You can look up Young Grasshoppers G1 strategy for some insight.

I’m going to have to.

Mine is a hybrid of his.  I try to take out Russia fast.  He likes the attrition game.  He also takes out the UK navy on G1.  Then proceeds to take out the UK navy in the Med on G2.  Helps out Italy in the Med.

[BJCard]

Well, maybe you use the German transports turn 3- or if its open you go up over to archangel.  I’ve also had Italy take out the Russian Cruiser with air- pissed me off as Russia as I couldn’t block the turn 2 attack on Leningrad.

May be hard to hold Cairo against 12+ Japan land units, at least 6 air units, 2 BB shots, 2 CA shots - especially if you didn’t anticipate the turn 5 or 6 attack on Cairo - remember the UK wouldn’t know that was the target (probably would assume Calcutta) until turn 3.  Like I said earlier you could suicide whatever Italian units can reach before Japan hits Cairo.

In the end (in Europe) all that matters is the 8 VC’s.

I should add that I haven’t tried this strategy yet- trying to flesh it out.  May be viable.

[variance]

One nice thing is this makes a FAST game.  You either win in 6-8 rounds or you LOSE.

[BJCard]

@variance:

One nice thing is this makes a FAST game.  You either win in 6-8 rounds or you LOSE.

Well, that is true.

[variance]

I think the most important piece of a G1/J4 plan aimed at taking down Moscow G6 is what you build on G4.  Timing the rape of Moscow (or its capitulation) for G6 makes the most sense because that’s when the Finns and Bulgarians can get there.  Rounds 1, 2, 3 can be mech/armor and G5 will be bombers, but G4 build can be used to build up defenses in the West in time to counterattack the allied landing which can be USA6 at the earliest.  That’s what makes G1/J4 superior to G1/J3.  SBR is key.

[elevenjerk]

That’s what makes G1/J4 superior to G1/J3

I agree.  I actually try to use as much Italy forces as possible to shore up France and/or W Germany.  After Rome is covered of course.

[mjjepper]

@elevenjerk:

Lately I have really liked the G1.  You can look up Young Grasshoppers G1 strategy for some insight.  It is really good.  I prefer to do it differently.  He likes to attack and then play the war of attrition if I remember correctly.  I like to attack and wipe out Russia as soon as possible.

The big difference between his G1 and mine is the attack of the Navy on sz 115.  I bring the Battleship, Cruiser, along with a couple airplanes.  If they scramble the 1 fighter you should still be able to win pretty easy.  If you have 2 @ 3 and 2 @ 4 with a hit on the battleship, Russia would be crazy to scramble.  The fighter is just too important.  That would only give them 1 @ 1, 1 @ 3, and 1 @ 4.  Not the odds I want as Russia.

As for the UK navy.  I only attack sz 111 with 2 subs, 3 fighters (1 from Norway, 2 from W Germany), 3 tacs (all from W Germany).

It is really quite effective.  I also take the transport to the battle with an Inf/Art from Germany to attack Baltic States.  This is in the hopes I don’t get diced in Baltic States and have a good number of units so Russia has to take most if not all available units to take it back.

Why wouldn’t the Russian sub at sz115 just submerge and attack your placed transports in sz113? If you instead place in sz112, either the SZ127 Russian Sub or UK would blow them up. I don’t see how this strategy works… If you also build a DD, then maybe.

[elevenjerk]

Why wouldn’t the Russian sub at sz115 just submerge and attack your placed transports in sz113? If you instead place in sz112, either the SZ127 Russian Sub or UK would blow them up. I don’t see how this strategy works… If you also build a DD, then maybe.

That is in fact what happened in my recent games.  I do build a DD to place with the transport.  I can also scramble 3 fighters if the sub attacks it.  In fact, the better move turned out to be the sub submerged.  On R1 the sub, 2 fighters, 1 tac attacked my BB and CV that were left.  One game Germany won the battle but clearly defying the odds.  The other time it was Russia winning with all the planes.  I actually am considering waiting till G2 to attack the Russian CV and sub in future games.